We have all seen and heard it - member whoring, I think the general feeling by all is that it is a disgraceful, pathetic and embarrassing way to look for new faces.

Whoring goes both ways though these days it seems. A telegram after wars stating simply 'I need an invite' seems to be the practice of some. Now I know we would all open our doors to the children of some we have lost and loved but to those we have yet to get to know well enough 4 words just doesn't cut it. The general effort shown in approach seems to have been lost somehow, riding on the back of mum or dads name sometimes just is not enough. I actually got a telegram from a fresh face after we explained that this family might not be the best fit for them stating that they choose the family not the other way around.

We are in a time of growth so conversations are a plenty - or not in some cases. Is whoring in both circumstances equally deplorable or do we allow the distinction of rank or position to dictate the 'proper' way to do things? Those in the free cities come here and be honest about the difficulty in finding that fine line between taking the actions needed to stay in favour and not just taking in any straggler off the streets for the sake of it.

Leaders should not feel the need to whore. In my mind it truly is that simple.

To separate the wheat from the chaff we now have boards at the end of the streets where leaders offer the little tasks that they don't want their members to be involved in. These should be the way that introductions are made. I have no issues with anyone mailing a solid hard working Thug, who has proven himself useful, and seeing what his thoughts are. But there are ways to do it. Just because they have done all your jobs does not mean they should automatically join you. There should be a dialogue where you carefully discover what this person is about. For all you know he could be an undercover and you're inviting him into the HQ!

In regards to someone who does not even look at the job board then it is very different. No leader should lower themselves to the level of mailing random people on the streets and trying to be their best mate. You have been Made. You are the creme de la creme of this world. You are better than that. I have always been a strong believer that the first move should come from the lower ranked member. That they should send a constructed request to talk about possible affiliation. Then, again, you decide if you want to open a dialogue and if you do then you should carefully weigh this person up. Just remember. All your members reflect directly on you. You invite this person who asked "CAn I H0v an InviT plz" and it is likely they are going to make you look bad. Mail them back, dig a little deeper and see what their personality is like. Have they come off the boat from abroad? Do they need a little help with the language? Can you mould this person into someone who has the potential to accept their button from you? If not, don't cash cow them. Let someone take them on who can or believes they can.

There will always be those who are beyond help. But as long as people now you are selective in who you accept then you're much more likely to get away with it. If you fill your 40 man HQ in a day and a half then everyone knows your game. They'll come down on your like a regiment of French cavalry. It's not a pretty sight and you won't have time to form square.

I cannot comment how much this practice is currently taking place. None of us around my age can. There were no crews. You were picked out as being one of the best when invited until more space became available. But, if anyone recently off the boat would like to share their stories then it would give us a better understanding of current practices and whether this is a legitimate concern. For if it is. It is one that needs addressing

I totally agree with you Anteros. Many people are looking for homes after the war. People wrote me as well saying "Give me shelter". But I always ask them if they want a cup of coffee so we can have a nice conversation. I want to make sure that the person that's coming to me fits in the family. Because obviously, you don't want any disputes among the crew.

I only talk to the people that did the jobs for us. I never talk to someone random for recruiting purposes.

Seeing as there are new leaders about, we need to be a bit more clear on what is or isn't acceptable and what is actually considered member whoring, otherwise they may not even know they are doing it.

For example, I was approached early on by a new leader. His effort was so lackluster I didn't even bother stopping to respond. There wasn't an outright invitation to join his crew, yet it was so shit I could've found a better conversation with me hand. His words were even slurred, like he didn't give a damn what he was saying.

Worst I experienced. And yet, his crew is at capacity. How the hell that works I can't wrap my head around. Maybe his members are just not sure what a good approach looks like, or they feel fine joining someone who doesn't give more than a five word effort. Who knows. Maybe they are exactly where they need and want to be.

The point here though is what exactly is member whoring? And what are some good examples compared to some bad real world examples?

Vincent Costello approached me with.. 'Ho John how you doing'. That was it. I consider that a piss poor effort, and something a leader shouldn't be doing, yet is it member whoring?

Now not a leader, but another was from Ivar Ragnarsson, who attempted to engage me with.. 'Good morning. New to these shores sir ?'.

Again not exactly an open invitation, but is it shitty enough to be considered not acceptable and member whoring like behaviour?

Now I know they may not know better, so hopefully this helps them to learn and grow into better examples, regardless. Yet, for that to happen we also need to know what is also considered better in comparison.

Midnight approached me with a massive amount of effort, and so did Anteros. It was about their families, what the were looking for and also what they expected. That they were being selective and wanted to know more about me to see if I would be a fit.

Now sure, these two examples I've labeled shitty may have gone in a similar direction. Yet I highly doubt if would've touched on things in such an in depth way. First impressions count, and they didn't do anything other than make me think Detroit may not be a place to go if one was seeking quality.

This is my opinion though, wrong or right. So I ask, are they along the lines of member whoring? And if not, what exactly is and isn't?

Everett stubs out his cigar and takes a big gulp from something in a paper bag before taking his turn to speak on the subject of whoring 

"As some have said before it does go both ways I joined the crew who engaged me the best in their approach and we had a good back and fourth before any decisions were made that said I had many people simply walk up to me and ask if I wanted a crew this worried me but im not shaming people as that is just pathetic its up to the crew leaders and button men to point members in the right direction"

Everett picks his paper bottle bag  up and gulps deeply and wipes his mouth with his sleeve and continues

"On the other hand my ancestors have been engaged well by a crew and joined only to find its quiet and the person whom you had such a good feeling about that you joined their crew for life dies, gets promotion,leaves and the reason you joined is gone, My advice is only join crews who make effort with you and you will have to pay them the same respect"

Everett is just about to walk away when he remembers another point he wanted to make 

"lots of us make so much effort meeting new faces spending time with them sending personal well written messages to would be crew members only to be completely ignored this can be very frustrating and can make you a Little less  likely to try as hard in the future or even change the name on the message and use it again thus taking away the personal touch"    

While listening to everyone talking on this subject I have to say something yet again. Lit up a cigarette took a deep breath.

To comment on JohnConstantine. When I was the right hand man for Vincent__costello I talked to him about this subject because I found out that he wasn't recruiting for what I see as fit. Well not that I'm a CL or anything but because my ancestor had issues in the past concerning whoring. And I didn't wanted to happen to anyone else.

Taking a drag from his cigarette and blew out a puff of smoke.

And I find it important that this is posted here right now because new CL's can read that there is an issue concerning whoring and this has to be addressed. Because with this system it's important that the new CL's learn and do what they can to prove themself. And in my opinion the more experienced people here can guide them so that those mistakes like whoring will be a thing of the past.

When the cigarette was done I flicked it into the street.

And I have to agree with Everett_Backstrom with his advice to join crews that put in an effort. This way new people who are joining in this world can decide if they like the personal touch. If they don't, you don't have a person in your crew that is unhappy at the end because they feel like they don't fit.

Dear John i just asked if your new to these shores ! I also told you good morning. Yes it might look whoring but this is how i start, then i elaborate depending if the player is new or old.Why did you not answered my message and see the aftermath ?Maybe i didn`t want to put more effort since it was morning and i was grumpy, or maybe i`m not the type that compose a scenario and copy/paste with slightly minor changes .For some of us english is not our first language,you should take that in account.

Don`t judge people on first impression my friend because i also disagree member whoring. I`ve seen much worse

Well I kept it vague but actually it is pretty refreshing to hear names called out and a place for those named to come and reply.

Those of us with half a brain can spot whoring a mile away and yes there is a strong clearly identifiable trend - those that become a family member that have yet to learn to write a single telegram time and time again is a huge shining beacon, those that write their first telegram and belong to a family too.

I am in a free city, I get the desire to shine but going about it by whoring members is counter productive. I was pleased coming to LA to quickly learn through communication that Midnight and I have the same work ethic, CookieSandwich was with me before setting up and so has grown up with the expectations around quality recruiting that she now continues to this day.

Watching this desperation and immaturity from some new crew leaders could be disheartening - actually I choose to make it a motivating thing that differentiates our family from others.

I also agree that it is a little of a bun fight out there just now to get the quality people. A short intro to test the water and see what kind of personality someone is can work - it is what follows that counts. We have suggested people who have approached us look elsewhere because we did not feel they would be a good fit for the family. Quality over quantity every time for me - oh and we are full. Did we do that overnight? Absolutely not, if fact we had an awkward period after being given permission to expand the HQ with no further new recruits. It is also a quality of a leader to stand firm in the values they hold dear, to feel the pressure but not compromise on what they know to be right.

For those in free cities this is a space to explain the pressure of recruiting, of being measured in all ways and how you deal with it. Especially for those who's names have been spoken.

I want to second what Anteros said here about quality over quantity is 100% what I strive for. I would like to think that people can have a civilised discussion without getting upset and defensive.

Whoring to me is zero effort. There have been times I have just messaged people very basically but I do not neccesarily do that to recruit as I have said before. Whoring has also been known as just inviting people without speaking to them. That to me is ridiculous. You know absolutely nothing about this person if you don't speak to them!

As Anteros said we have very similar styles. I would rather my crew be full of people I know are active and kind and trust worthy than a full crew in 5 minutes that wont even speak to each other and don't trust each other.

Sometimes I can put 100% effort into a nice long introduction and get nothing in response but that is no reason to stop trying in my opinion.

I don't think this speech was made to single people out and degrade anyone. So take it with a pinch of salt and relax a little, everyone has different styles I just believe we should all be putting in some kind of effort! You get what you give out. If you put out zero effort in recruiting people chances are, unless you get lucky, your going to get back zero effort. Put out negative vibes you will attract negativity. Put out effort and positivity and you will draw in the right people in my opinion.

Well we can all bash and join the bandwagon shaming "whoring". However, let's look at the big picture before we jump to agree and just splurge the same information over and over. There's also a gray area as to which point you must cross before it is not considered "whoring". One telegram, two? A coffee date and a few jobs done for the greater good of the family? There's nothing definitive.

In this thing of ours, not as outsiders call "mafia", we need to implement a deep network of connections and well, that means we need people. The larger the crew, family, or however you want to call it, the better your chances are to find someone available in a time of need. Now, before I go on, I don't necessarily condone "whoring", however desperate times call for desperate measures. 

A coffee date and speaking of common interests with lowly petty thieves, thugs, and gangsters doesn't have to get too in depth, or really need to happen. You're there to pick up these lowly souls and lead them, mold them and put them to use in your syndicate. It's a harsh world, and la cosa nostra is all the more fierce. 

I'd say nothing beyond a few questions, to ascertain their family history to lower liabilities and their name, is more than sufficient at the beginning. Have the prospect earn anything else, and reach for information, those coffee dates and feel the need to socialize so he or she can progress up the ladder.

I don't agree with just sending out a telegram invite. However, I don't agree with a couple questions being answered and that telegram invite being sent out after, either. It's after that point in which the progression and ascension to power is sacred, meaningful and should be earned.

CL’s should definitely not have to whore. Ever since the last wars, there has been a flood of new recruits, but not only that, but a flood of new CL’s beginning to arise as well. There should be no reason to take such actions because of the flood of new people. There is plenty of people for every crew and new players joining every day. When you are a new Crewleader, there is definitely no reason to whore members. Specifically, because you will want to know who is joining your crew. You will want to know if they will be causing drama or frankly just causing problems. Being a new CL, you really don’t want that in your crew since its your first time and you would obviously want it to go well. I really do not see the point in whoring because in the end, you’ll still get people in your crew. At the very least, it’s better to get to know the people in your crew before you add them.

Ivar_Ragnarsson, I see a lot of maybes and excuses for your lack of effort. I can get past a language barrier, no problems. In fact, one of my favourite people around this world is someone who doesn't speak English as a first language.

Hell, half the shit stains I put down speak in tongues. But I have to respect the fight they put up, cause they don't just roll over. They put in effort.

I didn't answer you because why the hell should I, or would I, with that level of energy extended towards me? I know my value, and what I'm looking for in a leader.

I will go to the ends of the Earth, and then some. I'll kick up a fuck ton of moolah, be a presence out here to be reckoned with, and push this world further and further to a point of quality.

So if you aint on that vibe, and aren't putting fourth that kind of energy that I will be, then maybe I'm thinking I could do a better job than you. Maybe I'm thinking what could you possibly have to offer me as a leader, a hand, someone I should be learning from?

It's a fact of life that first impressions are real. Like humans having emotions and thoughts, and a burning asshole after a meal full of chilis. I want to see a leader burning like that. I want to witness one unique, driven, all the way fuckn in, blazing up hellfires kind of presence.

I may be different in my standards, but that's what I look for because that's what I give in return and what I believe defines a true leader.

If you're too grumpy or too foreign to give me all that you have, then maybe you shouldn't be in the line of recruitment. Effort isn't measured in the language you speak, it's an energy thing, and it's a universal language all on its own.

Take this as simply my opinion. A hellish chili burning asshole's direct approach to not caring if you cuddle your pillow after this or not. Do what you want. Be who you want to be. But if the shoe fits, I'm gonna wear that mother fucker and stomp around in it, cause this aint prep school.

If you have a high position in society you automatically open yourself to scrutiny. I think it's time we start holding people accountable for their responsibilities, new and old leaders and hands alike.

Just because you're new to a high position, doesn't mean you get different requirements or Standards to meet. So sack up, and step up, cause you're in the big time now and your sub par effort aint enough anymore.

I would love to comment on my take on this subject. When I hit the shores, I was a just a regular civilian looking for Job and some place to lay my head, shelter if you may. Now in my opinion, we are the ones in desperate needs to be under protection.

I mean without a place to live, within a week I could be took advantage of from any gangster in these streets, and I could be sleeping with the fishes. These families provide shelter and connections to the world of crime, that pays very well. I peronally think its our job to approach the crew members or crew leader for work. I means the jobs only get you so far.

Now when I approached my Boss of today, I just didnt tell him, "hey I need an invite".

I told my leader a little bit about myself. I told him what I could bring to the family, if he should take me in and why he should accept me in to this thing of thiers over just any other civilian.

To me I think leaders should not member whore, nor should the kin of a fallen or new off the boat should invite whore erither. None of those 3 to 4 word enquiries should be standard. There is ways of doing things the right respectful way and there is the bullshit ways of half assing hatting it.

First of all, I'll take an opportunity to say something I think a few people have been thinking but were a little too nice to say. 

I don't give a fuck.

Now, before you get hot under the collar, let me explain.

If you're accepting awful invite requests, whether today or in a time of war, that don't even begin to warrant a discussion then you're going to end up getting exactly what you deserve from it. 

If you're going to lash out "Want an invite?" whoring requests to every window licker fresh off the boat you're also going to get exactly what you deserve.

If you're not showing intelligence, wit, competence and at least a hint of a work ethic then it doesn't matter if you're the one looking for a family or the one offering it to others, you're going to get exactly what you deserve.

You know how much thought I'll lose about what happens to you or your family? Not a second. As I said, I don't give a fuck.

If it was a sponsor working alongside me, someone with the ability to welcome new faces into our home, then it'd be a very different story. Then it's on my head, along with all the friends of ours under our roof, to ensure that our standards are high, the quality of recruits we bring in is high, the way we train those new members is adequate and that each day we're pushing everyone, associates and sponsors alike, to be their very best.

Whoring has a great way of taking care of itself. People get sick of it and it becomes a fierce easy excuse to add to a list when justifying wiping out a family. It becomes the straw that breaks the camels back when enough other things have gone wrong. It welcomes so many incompetent idiots that will eventually screw up under the one roof that it will bring all sorts of unwanted attention on the family in question.

Do I intend to invest large amounts of time into making sure other families are doing things in a sensible way? Hell no. Will I keep an eye on who among the community is standing up as a beacon for the dim and the incompetent and make notes on who to watch in the long run? You can be sure of it. 

BlackJack listens in on the conversation for some time before TsuDhoNimh gives his views. For the first time since the beginning of the discussion, BlackJack has an obvious smile on his face. He removes the cigarette from his mouth, clears his throat and begins to talk:

"The more I hear in the streets today, the more I found myself agreeing with the views of TsuDhoNimh. Who gives a fuck? This is a matter for crew leaders and upper structures. While I do not condone spam inviting people or just recruiting for the sake of it. In times of war, when we several people need shelter, I see no issues in opening the doors of your HQ. Once you have offered shelter the the homeless, you can get to know them and assess if they are worth of your button. If they aren't, just kick them back out on the streets. We should seek to protect the week and then make them earn their keep. Sometimes someone just needs a little helping hand to get started. Some of my most valuable members have been ones I have picked up of the street and taken the time to show them the way. We should work to encourage people rather than oush them out before they have a chance."

ThatGuy waited for everyone to finish and found the time to take his turn. He walks right in the middle of the crowd, and clears his throat to get their attention.

Ehmm

Well, when I first heard the subject I thought we were going to talk about whores. And I love whores. They bring me lots of cash, as fast as drugs do sometimes.

But after hearing everyone's respectful opinion, I understand that there is a bigger problem behind this.

Sure, every Crew leader is happy to see his HQ full of gangsters who will bring him billions of billions of dollars. I understand this. Leaders need followers. But they need quality too. They need a middle man, who will train the new associates, not just to a true gangster, but to a man of trust. After all we all agree that it is very easy to be an associate, but to become made, it takes much more. Therefor the presence of a mentor, or mentors within a crew is inevitable. Thus I believe that the first approach of a fresh of the boat newcomer, must be in the way a mentor would do, and not as a man who sees an old friend coming back from a vacations trip. 

And finally something that maybe some people will not like it. Some people approach newcomers with only a few words. I don't think that is always a bad thing. We must worry about the quality, and not the number of words in a chit chat talk in the streets. Personally I don't worry, about the fact that other sponsors try to member whore new gangster. When they have no skill in being a true mentor to them, their failure is a sure thing. Being an associate is an easy thing. Earn cash for your crew is good, but not everything. I can train a monkey to do this. It might take some time, but eventually the monkey will do a great job. But walking around the streets, having to do business and deals with others inside or outside from the family, you gonna need a mentor to train your new gangster.

Each time I try to understand something, more and more questions come up in my head. I mean, if we all agree that member whoring is a fact, what happens to those members who are being recruited? Are they trained proper to become a made one day? Are they becoming members of a family when noone has checked their skills and loyalty? And how the sponsors go ahead in their careers? Should those sponsors be judged by the number of associates? or by how their associates managed to comply to gangster life? And, maybe, is it time to consider if the mentoring skill should be a required skill for someone to become a made member of a family?

ThatGuy, puts his hands in his pockets and starts walking backwards to make some space for others to take their turn.

ThatGuy you make a very valid point, the approach is indicative of what you hope you might experience beyond that. If someone simply says hi and you invite them in pour them a scotch and show them all your family paperwork in the HQ then you will leave yourself exposed. Don't misunderstand me it is the skill of those recruiting to get passed those one liners to see what lies beneath - open questions can achieve this very easily. But as you say what could the recruit hope for from someone who lets anyone through their doors?

I suppose the reason I personally have a strong opinion on whoring - both ways - is that recruits here are an investment in the early days at least. An investment in time and training and in showing them how things work in this world of ours. Now if I am taking one or more of my active family members away for a short time from earning money to train up a mobster then I need to know the potential was there to begin with.

I accept all the different ways that people approach recruiting - I get why a short note for the first opening communication can be highly effective too. We all know whoring goes on and there is a fine line between accepting those who may have chosen to not put much or any effort in at all and take a risk that with some effort they can develop and outright whoring - that doesn't mean we can or should condone the latter in my personal view.