I love this idea too bad the person who wrote this has demoted past made man for bg's before himself, also many other's have in the game before as well. MANY TIMES.

Time and time again someone writes a thread about how it shouldn't be allowed yet typically they've done it themselves. If something like this were to be implimented it would require a reset. Why?

1.) It's immoral to do that to some users yet let other's get off with having done it.
2.) It's unethical as owner's to allow this change to occur simply because it goes against everything that has been preached on keeping the playing fields even.

So I have this for everyone that thinks demoting is so bad, how about you let a reset occur then let this changes be implemented? You get what you want correct? Correct.

It would keep accounts from being for too powerful, stagnancy would drop dramatically and guess what these threads would stop being posted.

But I already know that everyone is thinking "Forget the reset, I'll never agree to that."

So guess what, get use to how things are.

"So I have this for everyone that thinks demoting is so bad, how about you let a reset occur then let this changes be implemented? You get what you want correct? Correct.

It would keep accounts from being for too powerful, stagnancy would drop dramatically and guess what these threads would stop being posted.

But I already know that everyone is thinking "Forget the reset, I'll never agree to that."


Lol saying a reset would be needed to make this fair is a little crazy

Only thing i think that would make this idea better, allow for demotion past made man for punishment purpose i think demotion is still viable reason for punishment. I agree with a few other people let them be demoted but once made man is acchived make it so the bg price stays that way.

as long as admin gave notice of the change and some time for all current players to get demoted and then rank back up again, then it would be a fair way of impliamenting the change.

Apologies in advance, I've not read every reply to this thread, just wanted to get a quick thought out.

I'm not a fan of demotion in order to BG up either, but I don't think removing demotion below MM is the answer. Albeit rare, that can be useful as a punishment. An easy answer is to reset stats upon demotion.

If you go back to Thug, here, have your starting stats back. Wack included. It would also increase the usefulness of demotion as a genuine punishment. You get demoted, you lose some stats. The only issue I can see is what exactly the stats get reset to, for example, if you punish someone with demotion to Wise Guy from Capo.

An extra DB table to hold historic stat info may work. One record per user promotion, showing their stats at the time of any promotion (ie, a Don would have 9-10 historical records showing stats at the time of each promo). Never updated or amended, just held solely for the purpose of demotions.

I know it means slightly more database space, but holding a handful of rows per user is not very much data in the grand scheme of things. It's going to be in the order of thousands rather than anything beyond that. The records can be removed as a user dies, so the sizing is fairly predictable on the DB side.

Meant to add, giving some purpose to demotions as punishment would also help with the psychology some people have that if you fuck up, you die. No matter what scale the fuck up is on.

I don't see how adding any sort of penalty on demotions is fair for present/future users. Many many people were demoted for BG's and now hold a position of power. How would it be fair for present/future users to not be able to do that but those that got in power and those that are just around did? I just don't understand how it is fair at all.

Things change all the time Absolut, and life in general is not fair. If admin where to impliament any of the suggestions here, they could simply say, we will do so in 60 days. that would give everyone here the chance to be demoted to buy BGs and rank back up to where they were no matter what their rank was.

The problem is, Demotion to buy BGs was never the intention of the demotion feature. The feature was implimented so that CLs could punish people without killing them. However, it was soon abused to give obsene numbers of BGs to people at a fraction of what it would normally cost.

The suggestions here do not stop that, merely curtail it. If you can't be demoted below MM one you are made, then it would be up to your CL/sponsor/sugar daddy to buy you BGs before you are made in order to get them at thug prices.

Alternatively as Hoopi suggests, resetting your stats to the base for that level would also be a good deterant... after all if I have spent 50 CDs and untold millions training my gun, why would I want to take a demotion back to thug and have to do everything all over again.

As for a base level to use Hoopi, I'm sure that the admins use a base level for the Durden's, so if you are demoted to say Wiseguy from Don, I feel that giving you the stats of a WG Durden wouyld probably work. Whilst you may indeed have been far better than that at WG yourself, it is after all a punishment, so you shouldn't have gotten yourself demoted in the first place.

Absolut, I've never been demoted to take BGs, although it has been offered to me on numerous occasions. I can't say i wouldn't take it this time if it were offered again however, but I would be willing to give up the oppertunity to get BGs at Thug prices if it blocked up what i see as a huge flaw in the game. Would I feel hard done by cos Hoopi and tyrion have a billion BGs and I don't? No, in all likelihood I would feel that I was morally superior... as well as just superior in general as everyone already knows I am :p

I don't think having a dose of the green eyed monster is reason to stop this ammendment happening to the game.

Demotion was created as a punishment, and its about time it returned to being just that, a punishment. If i found a way to make money really easy through a flaw in the game, admin would be quick to plug it and possibly killl me for failure to report the glitch. Well here is a huge glitch that needs fixed.

I don't see how though going down in rank effects your gun skills.

Only thing i think that would make this idea better, allow for demotion past made man for punishment purpose i think demotion is still viable reason for punishment. I agree with a few other people let them be demoted but once made man is acchived make it so the bg price stays that way.

All this talk of demotion can be used as a form of punishment, well if this idea is implemented and you cannot go below made man once you have reached that rank, how about a form of punishment can be a promotion ban? Just as effective as a demotion. Being demoted/being held back from promotion is more or less the same thing.

I like WildTurkey's idea and think it would be a good addition to the game, if made man is so highly thought of and desired then it should not be allowed to be thrown out by getting demoted for some BG's.

I agree as well but still, so many have already done it before. Hell WildTurkey on past accounts has demoted for bgs. How is that fair that he can reap the benefits just as so many have and helped them get so strong yet future members can't have the same tactic since those that already used in have convinced it being banned from happening?

It makes very little sense that so many can benefit from this for so long and they're here now saying that it shouldn't be allowed. It's quite hypocritical to say the least.

OK Absolut, as you know so much about WTs past, have you ever accepted BGs through demotion yourself?

Yes, but I'm not the one for this UNLESS there is a reset.

Gotta love 'Yes, buts' :D

As for a base level to use Hoopi, I'm sure that the admins use a base level for the Durden's, so if you are demoted to say Wiseguy from Don, I feel that giving you the stats of a WG Durden wouyld probably work. Whilst you may indeed have been far better than that at WG yourself, it is after all a punishment, so you shouldn't have gotten yourself demoted in the first place.

True, but it would undermind folks' start up answers. If a snapshot of stats at promotion time was used, it'd be more reflective of the kind of account people actually wanted to play.

I don't see how though going down in rank effects your gun skills.

If demotion's a punishment, lets make it a punishment. Concessions from "RL scenarios" exist all over the place.

All this talk of demotion can be used as a form of punishment, well if this idea is implemented and you cannot go below made man once you have reached that rank, how about a form of punishment can be a promotion ban? Just as effective as a demotion. Being demoted/being held back from promotion is more or less the same thing.

I'd disagree. A promotion being held back is just a time limit being imposed. The punished player hasn't lost any effort, or been stopped in terms of gaining XP. Then 2 weeks later, ban lifted and boom...he's a Consig. With a demotion, at least they lose effort they've put in previously. Also, punishments are often about sending a message to other cities as well as the wrong-doer, an acknowledgement that someone has wronged. People like to see demotions in those cases, not just players being "held".

I agree as well but still, so many have already done it before. Hell WildTurkey on past accounts has demoted for bgs. How is that fair that he can reap the benefits just as so many have and helped them get so strong yet future members can't have the same tactic since those that already used in have convinced it being banned from happening?

It makes very little sense that so many can benefit from this for so long and they're here now saying that it shouldn't be allowed. It's quite hypocritical to say the least.

As has been said, if notice of any change is given, EVERYONE has the opportunity to demote/BG up if they so desire. Also bear in mind, many of the people that are sitting on BGs just now haven't gone through a demotion, they've had them since day 1 of their accounts and supplemented it on the way up the ranks. Myself included. That avenue would still be open.

True, but it would undermind folks' start up answers. If a snapshot of stats at promotion time was used, it'd be more reflective of the kind of account people actually wanted to play.

Even more reason not to get demoted :D

Unfortunately Hoopi not everyone has the friends you do. Many have had to count on making a name then demoting for bg's. Also giving a notice doesn't really cut it tbfh. Especially since many do rely on bging themselves up. I know of quite a few people that have paid for their own bg's and that's how they always have.

Unless all are put to it old or new I don't see it being ethical.

So in other words because its always been done it should always be done is what you're saying Absolut. It doesn't matter that its wrong, or that its an abuse of the system. The moral highground means nothing to you. You are just whinning because in your eyes its unfair.

In all honesty, if I where a programmer in this game, I'd close the hole and to hell with everyone. Its a cheat in the system, its a flaw in the code. Sure people have abused it in the past, but that is no reason to let it continue. In the past, Admin have made announcements regarding changes to the game and given time so everyone currently playing has a chance to benefit before the change is impliamented. In this case you are cheating, and I mean the general you as in anyone who takes a demotion to buy BGs and not you specifically, end of story. Whilst it would be nice of the admins to give you a chance to benefit before the change, they are under no obligation to do so. Bodyguards are a reward, they are not a right. Not everyone in the game needs or deserves them. To suggest otherwise is just foolish. As for not having the friends Hoopi has, well that's just a cop out. Hoopi didn't start out with loads of friends. He played the game, made a name for himself, and made friends who are willing to help him. His Previous Character was a GF, and probably had money stashed away for when he died. If not everyone has the friends Hoopi has, then that's their tough luck for not playing the game right in the first place. This is a MMPORPG, and as such has a social element to it. It is designed in a way that people who make friends gain benefits that those who do not don't.

If you want cheap BGs, then I suggest you do this. Rank up. Stay alive. Buy CDs. When you die, sell your CDs and buy BGs at 750k each. Don't cheat and get demoted to buy them. By doing so you dishonour the game, the admins and yourself.

Also giving a notice doesn't really cut it tbfh. Especially since many do rely on bging themselves up. I know of quite a few people that have paid for their own bg's and that's how they always have.

"To be fucking honest" I have always had to buy my own BGs. I also pay for my own BGs and I always have. I have no problems with admin giving notice and changing the code. I'm not here whinning that its not fair. Well revelation for ya, life isn't fair. As I have stated in the past and will continue to do so: taking a demotion to BG up is an abuse of the system, plain and simple. It is cheating, plain and simple. If you found a flaw that penalized your character you'd expect admin to fix it immediately, so why complain when one that benefits your character is talked about being fixed?

What about when the code was changed to have 30 minimum member's to make godfather, and they made it 5 months to acheive.

Robert_McCall I don't see how I am whining and I would appreciate you don't get into a cock measuring contest over something so stupid. Anyways other than the fact I'm for this WITH a reset because it can only help my character if all are held to it. Many, many users have demoted for bg's in the past and when new players come even after the notice and hear about that how should they feel? That other's got to benefit from it but since they came later these accounts are so massive that they can't bg up properly because they can't demote.

No new player knows that they should buy bg's so fast and those that do have had proper training from a veteran player. What good would this be when there's 150+ bg accounts and then you have so many joining that maybe have 20? The defense difference is very high and 20 bg's isn't much at all. Hell a Consigliere with 100-110 kills could easily drop a 20 bged Consigliere. I've done before and I was on defense when I was shooting.

So I suppose look at it from the point of how it will make the game more lopsided towards those being older even more powerful then they normally would be. They would bg up their friends and then those that rely on a demote couldn't do it because it has the benefits of keeping wack stats.

Unfortunately you have overlooked that this game was not designed to ever have year old accounts that had 700+ kills and 200 bodyguards. By putting it to where bg's are harder to get later or more expensive that would cause people to have to kill their account just to get bged up but then they would have to turn around and train their gun back another important element these days.

So instead of looking at how immoral it is maybe think about how it can cause more stagnancy and just make things more difficult in general. Like I said, I'm all for this but only if there is a reset so that everyone get's a fair shake. Everyone is held to the same stature.