Times have changed rapidly, for some reason it is more beneficial and for other reasons it is not at all. In some steps we have gone forward, in others we have gone backwards. What i want to do is see what all of you think about how we have grown over the years, is it for the better or worse? Here are some ideas i have been thinking of.

Made Man is a great honour to reach, nowadays we see people with that honour everywhere, it is as if the rank is being handed out in cereal packs. Some of those people deserve it but a hell of a lot do not. It is up to the leaders how they choose to select who gets the rank or not. I just hope our leaders remember that certain ranks must be earned, not just given out because they believe it makes them 'stronger'.

Ranks, i believe people are ranking too fast, it used to be a celebration to see someone hit the rank of Don, now, nobody bats an eyelid (I won't even go into Godfathers). I preferred a time when getting promoted actually meant something. ( I wont say too much as Reditus has recently published an article regarding the subject).

Member whoring, seems to me to be freely accepted. What a load of shit, come on leaders, get a grip. Show some bastard integrity.

Wars, now we see very few war and when we do, it is usually 3 cities vs 1, so it lasts a few hours. In the old days they would last forever because no one had BG's or canons for guns and it was more fair. Although wars are not everything, it is nice to see how we have evolved and settled down (if slightly boring). The lifespan of a mobster had grown rapidly.

Wackers, now wackers are everywhere, again, being a hitter doesn't mean much at all it seems. Before hitters were highly regarded and commanded respect as they were the ones that protected the family. Now with the changes we have had it seems almost anyone is a hitter as the Gods seem to be helping with that front. *MIA's, RIA's, NPC's*. Now i am stuck with this one, is it more fair that almost anyone can be a hitter given time? Or is it still a massive disadvantage and un-realistic way things are? I don't know but it seems they are everywhere which i personally do not like.

Bodyguards, unheard of before but now people can afford them i believe it is a massive benefit in our time (with all these guns around). I have no qualms about bodyguards, we are in the mafia, its what we do to protect us.

Cities, we have more cities, always a bonus when another one becomes available. It gives people more room and a bit more freedom. We have some people calling for more and others calling for less cities. Personally i think too many is better than too less. It shows again how much we have grown.

These are just a few ideas i have decided to highlight and i would much appreciate your feedback. This is a debate, a sort of survey. So please, don't come out here and point fingers and make accusations. If you do they will be wildly ignored and spat on.

Regards

Cruel

     I see what you are saying Cruel.  You are right we should have a little cities for the benifits of it. But you are sorta right and wrong about wackers and Ranking. In the mob anyone with a gun can be a hitter (that is the truth). And it was the choice of the CL giving someone their button to become Made. Some of the people that are made have worked really hard on it so they are rewarded.

(I was trying allot not to seem like I am pointing a finger at you).

What you are saying about member whoring is correct it is getting completely out of hand.

It comes from the rank problem aswell.

let me explain.

Just promoted made man has the new power of becoming a sponsor looks at the 60 second list and picks the last name and writes out a big roleplay offering him/her a chance to become there associate he/she gets no response so he picks another one at total random until someone responds.And now he has a new associate.They don't know anything about them.Could be someone who wants to cause trouble could be someone who will go I.A after a day.But they don't know all they care about is that they now have an associate.

So I agree totally on what Cruel is saying on the member whoring and the ranks.

I also agree on what Gabriel is saying about hitters.

That is my two cents on the subject

Galactus walks from Reditus confrontation over to Cruel's across the street.

Its funny how you and Rediticus come into the streets and say that CL give handouts and some Made Man dont deserve that heading in their names.Like i've stated before,regardless of what the opinions might be a CL cant just promote and promote.Promotion must be clear being that experience must be achieved along with achievements and also if you dont know some CL have extra requirements required for individual promotions.

I think before you came out here you shouldve talked this over with your boss because you have made nothing but a Jamook out of yourself.

Galactus then leaves for a refreshing drink.

Made a Jalook out of myself, really?

I am pretty sure i said this is a debate, certain subjects have been chosen and i asked for peoples opinions, all you have given is a shitty rant about something you clearly know not much about. Instead of getting heated up about one subject how about expressing your opinions on the other subjects?

Cruel skips off to make a Jalook out of Galactus' nan.

Maybe you have a point about talking to other people before giving my speech, i obvioulsy meant 'Jamook' although 'Jalook' sounds cooler.

I was walking down the street, when I saw a man in a cowboy hat with blazing passion in his eyes. I stopped to see what he had to say, gave a small applause then began to speak.

Indeed the times have changed. Is it for the better or worse? We are not in the proper time to say. In the current time, we could say this is the most horrible thing to ever happen; however, in the future we could look back and say that this was the beginning of a golden age. However, I wish to share my opinion on the subjects that you are so passionate about.

Made Man is supposed to be the time when you finally are given a voice. You are now a part of the inner circle, and an official member of this thing of ours. It does pain me to see so many people being handed the position. What happened to the time when you had to put in endless hours of hard work and prove your dedication to your Leader before you were even given the opportunity to be a Made Man? However, it is also unknown to the general public what was done by that member for the Leader to trust them enough with the position. One can only hope that the position was not granted to make the family look larger, and more powerful.

Ranking, well, it follows essentially the same as above. I agree with you.

Member whoring is dependant on how it is gone about. If you go through a thorough process with the individual you are talking about, and really try to get a sense of what type of person the member is, then does it matter how the person was first approached? For the most part we are here to make money, and have no doubt, associates make you money. For one, I am very selective, because I want the most money from my associates, and I want to tutor them until they are worthy of the rank of Made.

Bodyguards, in most cases should be limited to those in the inner circle. I personally cannot say much on the matter because I also am guilty. In terms of realism however, how many people that are not official members of this thing of ours have their own personal bodyguards?

This is just my opinions on the matter. Excellent speech Cruel.

Gives Cruel a round of applause and leans on a building to hear more opinions.

I agree with what you are saying Scott. But what if someone is given the money to hire BodyGuards for not what they did, but for what their parents did? like if their parents were once GodFathers does that mean when they get the chance to be Made their Crewleader is just going to "made" themwithout even thinking about it becuase of what their Crewleader thinks what they are going to be given the chance to become made?

I agree with what you are saying Scott. But what if someone is given the money to hire BodyGuards for not what they did, but for what their parents did? like if their parents were once GodFathers does that mean when they get the chance to be Made their Crewleader is just going to "made"   even thinking about it becuase of what their Crewleader thinks what they are going to be given the chance to become made?

If there parents were GFs they would obvisouly be a welcome addition to any crew.There parents being GF would be a factor in them being made but they should still have to prove they still have it.

 

Gabriel, who is anyone to say that the son or daughter is going to be the same person as the parent? Is everyone not their own person? How does one decide upon the birth of a person that they are going to be worthy of the bodyguards given to them? Alas, these are rambling questions upon questions without addressing what is truly being asked.

In the end it is up to the crew leader in question as to whether someone should be trusted from birth with bodyguards. However, even if one is deemed worthy of the bodyguards because of the bloodline from which they have descended, should they not still have to put in the work and effort it takes to become Made?

In this thing of ours, if one Made Man dies and has a living son, is the son automatically as good as the father and therefore deserving of the position based on the merits of his father? Some may believe so. In my personal opinion, it doesn't. As I said, everyone is their own person, and every person with the position of Made Man should have to earn it. No matter what. If the parent or grandparent was a Godfather? Congratulations on the achievement, however, your son is not the same person. If you earned it once, is it really that hard to put in what is needed to earn it again?

Thats what exactly what I am saying Dante. Just because their parents were Godfathers does not mean they are going to be exactly like them. For the you now they are going to want to take full control over the city even with a godfather still there. Thats all I am saying

Again someone is understanding what I am saying. All I have to say is Dante, Scott someday you are going to great leaders of your own family.

I agree with that but it still should be a small factor on making them,There aprents merits.

parents*

Well Cruel, at the risk seeming blinded by nostalgia, I too find myself remembering the times when Made Men were less common than Dons are today.  That may sound like an exaggeration, but it's not. 

Perhaps these swarms of priviliged men have all earned their buttons.  I doubt it.  I recently saw a button man who had not the faintest understanding of how to conduct himself in these streets.  And yes, every jackass is packing a massive gun these days. 

Despite this, it is obvious to me that our guiding principles, Respect, Honor, and Omerta are still thriving.  Let me give you an example: Recently a powerful Don from Chicago challenged another from New York.  Dante Balboni's disrespect was so egregious that he was laid to waste in a matter of minutes.  Following this incident, the honorable leader from New York supported a protection order for the Chicago crew with such professionalism that not a single life was lost that day, bar that of Mr. Balboni of course.  The iron fist inside a velvet glove has never been so admirably displayed.

Let me give you another example, one I'm sure we're well familiar with.  Recently L.A. steamrolled through Philidelphia largely because of the lack of respect shown by the City of Brotherly love.  There were no attempts to whitewash the incident.  None.  This was the realization of a simple demand: Respect us or die. 

Yes La Cosa Nostra is still alive and well and I would caution against confusing the mafia ideal with the borderline anarchy, constant rogues, and the petty squabbles of the past.  I believe we have (in general) become far more sophisticated in our dealings with one another - despite all of the downsides of these new times.

And Galactus, you've lost me to be honest.  From what I can guage, it sounds as though you are saying that anyone who is eligible (has met the bare minimum qualifications) to receive his button should be granted this traditionally noteworthy honor.  If this is what you argue, then I wholly disagree.

Thank you Gabriel.

I would just like to highlight a couple things:

"In the old days they would last forever because no one had BG's or canons for guns and it was more fair."

These two new developments should cancel one another out, right?

and

"Wackers, now wackers are everywhere, again, being a hitter doesn't mean much at all it seems."

I disagree.  Sure, there may be more and more people around here with decent guns, but, as you've mentioned, with the development of bodyguards, I think that a truly good gun is just as hard to come by.  If not more rare than ever before.  The big change, perhaps, is being able to identify a real quality gun vs. decent one that seems quality.

Good point Robert_Jordan.

But do hefty guns get cancelled out a zillion BG's? Logic would say yes but i would say no. As you kind of pointed out, if the fine details that determine the stronger, largely down to the person themselves.

I believe that the society is changing for the better because our world has been skewed in a way that helps civilians and harden criminals alike compete within our society. While the mindset of the leadership has changed significantly over the past years I think that this change has helped grow and build the world as it is now.

However, don't confuse that with inexperienced men and women receiving their button at their leader's whim. I think for the most part the leaders of our world give buttons to people who are deserving of respect. Though you could clearly make the argument that you need more than 2 weeks to decide if someone has a suitable personality to be deserving, but since our society is the way it is maybe thats wishing for the impossible.

Also, I think theres no reason to have more cities than what we already do. We don't need leadership to be spread out more than it already is.

Other than that I basically agree with your major points, Cruel. Its a good discussion point.

mcCall once again escapes from the shadows to espouse opinion concealed as fact on the unsuspecting populace. he has no doubt in his own mind that there are many who see him and groan inwardly, and a few who groan not so inwardly. He also knows that there are a small handful of individuals out there who secretly give a gasp of joy everyime he appears on the streets, and it is for that small group that he speaks

Greetings friends, I'm Robert McCall, but please call me McCall, evene does. An interesting debate you have ignighted Sir, I'm sorry I don't know your name as you did not introduce yourself, however I feel that it has some inherant flaws that I will hope to address. Please do not take anything I say personally or feel that it is directed specifically at you, because this is a general conversation aimed at all. I will of course address you as you have brought up the inital points. Also i will use people familiar to me in examples, please do not feel that this is the opinion or general behaviour of these people, its not, its just that I know who they are and can name them on sight, whereas I have no idea who the people of LA are except the most powerful.

That being said let me begin.

I just hope our leaders remember that certain ranks must be earned, not just given out because they believe it makes them 'stronger'.

I see no evidence of people being handed Made man status at every turn, although I'm sure it goes on occasionally, as it always has. It is up to a CL to promote based on what he knows. how do you know that the CL hasn't seen something in the individuals concerned that you have not? He could be a great earner, a master hitman, invaluable in the HQ or an expert in oral relief. There a re a million reasons to award a button and only 1 to with hold it. Does this mean that everyone who holds the rank deserves it? No, but this is something that has always happened. I remember my grand daddy telling me of families in the old country that were taken down because their leaders where ass clowns and promoted everyone without proving themselves, making their families weak and vunerable to attack. This is the way of the world, survival of the fittest.

Ranks, i believe people are ranking too fast, it used to be a celebration to see someone hit the rank of Don, now, nobody bats an eyelid (I won't even go into Godfathers). I preferred a time when getting promoted actually meant something.

People have always ranked fast. My family is famous for it. Ask anyone who knows us well and they will tell you that the Tiscalli's always ranked fast. The only reason we have a plethora of Dons and an abundance of godfathers is that people live longer. There aren't the wars there once were which allows people to rank to the highest levels. This again doesn't devalue the rank, it simple means that it is more accessable. I had a discussion with Tyrion the other day, and ass kissing aside he is a very intelligent and astute man, about this very subject, and would it be possible to create a family that ranks and promotes based on the rules of la Cosa nostra. We came to the mutual decision that it was impossible. Would you for instance stay in a family where you knew you would never reach Consigliere because the roles of RHM, LHM and family advisor where filled? Would you stay in that family if you could not get Boss, because as a Capo you had failed to raise your own associate to made status? Think about these things I have said and tell me honestly how you feel, I would like to know what you personally think.

Member whoring, seems to me to be freely accepted. What a load of shit, come on leaders, get a grip. Show some bastard integrity.

So all leaders Member Whore do they? I am the 6th generation of my family to walk these streets since returning from a long period in the old country, and in all that time I have never been in a family that whores. I have never ben in a family that approached me ans said do you want an invite. Does it happen? yes I'm sure it does, but not on the scale you imply. Whoring is the state whereby a crew representative approaches you and offers you associate status without even enquiring if you need it. That is whoring. Approaching Criminals and saying 'I've been watching you and I feel you have talents we can use, i'd like to introduce you to my boss and offer you a chance to work for him under my watchful eye' is not whoring. It is good business sense. If I can 'hoover' up the best and the brightest to serve the great city of New York and leave the crap for you, does that not mke New York stronger and more powerful? Most who complain about whoring do so because they do not understand what constitutes whoring. This notion that a gangster should approach a family and seak sponsorship is flawed. What would happen if a civilian went to little italy and went up to a man of honour and said I know you are a criminal and I want to work for you dealing drugs and stealing pensions? The man of honour would deny it as required under Omera, and later that night the civie would be scooped up, and 'interrogated' before being fitted for a new overcoat and dumped in the river.

Wars, now we see very few war and when we do, it is usually 3 cities vs 1, so it lasts a few hours. In the old days they would last forever because no one had BG's or canons for guns and it was more fair. Although wars are not everything, it is nice to see how we have evolved and settled down (if slightly boring). The lifespan of a mobster had grown rapidly.

This is mostly rubbish. La Frat always went to war 3 or 4 on one. Mario Marenangelo, DeanMartin, UntouchableSaint, MrEvilMan, Anita and Flying pig are all people my family has had the distinct honour of serving under. All had cannons, all felled everyone they shot. A few had what was considered at that time to have huge numbers of bodyguards. This is merely progress. 30 years ago few had cars, now they are common place. 30 years ago I couldn't fly from new york to LA, now I can. More big hitters and more BGs is just the price of progress. As has already been said by another individual who didn't introduce himself, anyone in the mafia who can hold a gun is considered a hitter. Wars are never fair, and the only reason that they lasted days at one point was that there where families running around 4 or 5 or 6 cities with 200 members, now we have 20+ crews and families in 8 cities with a maximum of 50 members each. The fact that we have 'evolved and settled down' and the fact that you know this suggests that you also know the reason why high ranks are more common place.

Bodyguards, unheard of before but now people can afford them i believe it is a massive benefit in our time (with all these guns around). I have no qualms about bodyguards, we are in the mafia, its what we do to protect us.

I'm sorry my friend, but this is complete rubbish. We are mobsters, not A-List celebrities. We should be using our Assocaite and Made men for protection, not hiring outsiders to do the job. This is a massive breach of omerta, all these dumb schlubs in black suits running around listening into our business. However, i agree that they are a necessary evil, with the prevalence of hitters, and the ability to train a fine shot in short order, more defense is needed. I would like to see the Gods curtail the defences as discussed in Suggestions street, and this in turn will allow them to scale back on the targets they provide. At the moment we have a circular pattern. heavy hitters meaning we need more defence, meaning we need more training to hit, leading to more defense and so it goes on and on.

As for the cities, well in my opinion its a bit much at the moment, they are never full, and almost never do they all have crews in them. howevr this allows for expansion should more budding gangsters suddenly arrive on our shores.

Thank you sir for allowing me to debate these topics with you, it hs been most enlightening, and I look forward to your rebuttals.

mcCall steps back and looks around to see who will speak next.