I was originally going to write this for the streets but it’s easier to make this an OOC thread.

The title says it all – is witness statement catching a shady, filthy disgusting thing? Or is it sometimes a necessary evil? Seeing as how it’s a favorite tool of those currently in charge, niflheim, let’s review their handy work to provide some context.

They rose to power after the death of Kurgan. Shot by Tobias, the witness statement was caught and the next day everyone came online to ask what happened. Who shot Kurgan? What would happen next? Would nobody step forward?

A short time later time later it was Artus that went down. This time niflheim messed up. Turtle shot too soon, before everyone was lined up, and the witness statement wasn’t caught. He then became a “rogue” and they pinned the death of Kurgan on him as well, to draw the heat away from Tobias.

Another excellent example of witness statement catching was the death of JaryllJicchai, a.k.a RobOakheart. A prominent voice in the streets, seemingly under the protection of those in charge, his own crew leader gave him up as a gift to dear Nefer, who wanted to shoot him to avenge her death as Skadi. She was asked to catch the witness statement to “avoid drama” but again they failed. Instead the witness statement was caught by SweetNothings. However, obedient to her Godfather, she made the witness statement disappear.

More recent examples of their witness statement catching include the death of Begbie, a left hand in Chicago, Don-Ald in Las Vegas and now Dutchess, another one from Chicago, all “enemies” of niflheim.

I want to ask an honest question here – if you’re running the game, why do you need to witness statement catch? I can understand Kurgan and even Artus. But why the most recent three? Why not stand proud and own up to what you’re shooting? You're in charge after all, what would anyone do?

I have it on good authority that last night almost every member of nifl was online to help catch the witness statement of Dutchess, also known as Fatality. A man First despises. I’ve heard First even took the shot himself. Why witness statement catch it? Maybe to avoid pissing off MonsterHair, but even still, he’s absurdly loyal to Disorder, even above the wellbeing of his own city, so why?

Surely the right hand of Disorder, the most powerful man in the land, can shoot whoever the fuck he wants to shoot? I mean, Mr. Gleeballs sure does (although maybe he’s learned a lesson this time? I somehow doubt it).

Other groups have been known to witness statement catch. I believe Daniella recently aired some dirty laundry involving JTG and Revan in a different thread. I also have it on good authority that this situation led to the end of her friendship with Revan (yeah, he’s a little pussy that didn’t like dying) because witness statement catching that she was involved in was “disgusting” and “rogue activities”. But didn’t Daniella, Revan, Spike, JTG and a handful of others help to catch the witness statement for Kurgan and Artus? Such a double standard.  

When is witness statement catching ok? Is it ever?

I, for one, think it’s disgusting. If you’re going to shoot someone, be a man, grow some balls and own up to the shot. Granted in a situation like the downfall of Kurgan it seems like it was a necessary evil – the start to a takedown that would last over a week. But their recent kills? Completely unnecessary.

Be a man First. Own up to your kills like a real man would. Shoot whoever the fuck you want to shoot, but stop trying to hide in the shadows. Everyone knows who you are. Everyone knows what you do. So own it.

I was originally going to write this for the streets but it’s easier to make this an OOC thread.

The title says it all – is witness statement catching a shady, filthy disgusting thing? Or is it sometimes a necessary evil? Seeing as how it’s a favorite tool of those currently in charge, niflheim, let’s review their handy work to provide some context.

They rose to power after the death of Kurgan. Shot by Tobias, the witness statement was caught and the next day everyone came online to ask what happened. Who shot Kurgan? What would happen next? Would nobody step forward?

A short time later time later it was Artus that went down. This time niflheim messed up. Turtle shot too soon, before everyone was lined up, and the witness statement wasn’t caught. He then became a “rogue” and they pinned the death of Kurgan on him as well, to draw the heat away from Tobias.

Another excellent example of witness statement catching was the death of JaryllJicchai, a.k.a RobOakheart. A prominent voice in the streets, seemingly under the protection of those in charge, his own crew leader gave him up as a gift to dear Nefer, who wanted to shoot him to avenge her death as Skadi. She was asked to catch the witness statement to “avoid drama” but again they failed. Instead the witness statement was caught by SweetNothings. However, obedient to her Godfather, she made the witness statement disappear.

More recent examples of their witness statement catching include the death of Begbie, a left hand in Chicago, Don-Ald in Las Vegas and now Dutchess, another one from Chicago, all “enemies” of niflheim.

I want to ask an honest question here – if you’re running the game, why do you need to witness statement catch? I can understand Kurgan and even Artus. But why the most recent three? Why not stand proud and own up to what you’re shooting? You're in charge after all, what would anyone do?

I have it on good authority that last night almost every member of nifl was online to help catch the witness statement of Dutchess, also known as Fatality. A man First despises. I’ve heard First even took the shot himself. Why witness statement catch it? Maybe to avoid pissing off MonsterHair, but even still, he’s absurdly loyal to Disorder, even above the wellbeing of his own city, so why?

Surely the right hand of Disorder, the most powerful man in the land, can shoot whoever the fuck he wants to shoot? I mean, Mr. Gleeballs sure does (although maybe he’s learned a lesson this time? I somehow doubt it).

Other groups have been known to witness statement catch. I believe Daniella recently aired some dirty laundry involving JTG and Revan in a different thread. I also have it on good authority that this situation led to the end of her friendship with Revan (yeah, he’s a little pussy that didn’t like dying) because witness statement catching that she was involved in was “disgusting” and “rogue activities”. But didn’t Daniella, Revan, Spike, JTG and a handful of others help to catch the witness statement for Kurgan and Artus? Such a double standard.  

When is witness statement catching ok? Is it ever?

I, for one, think it’s disgusting. If you’re going to shoot someone, be a man, grow some balls and own up to the shot. Granted in a situation like the downfall of Kurgan it seems like it was a necessary evil – the start to a takedown that would last over a week. But their recent kills? Completely unnecessary.

Be a man First. Own up to your kills like a real man would. Shoot whoever the fuck you want to shoot, but stop trying to hide in the shadows. Everyone knows who you are. Everyone knows what you do. So own it.

Alright, I've fixed the thread for anyone interested in the important parts. 

Carry on.

Shooting someone to avenge a previous character death irks me a little. Perhaps it because nothing I do on here is personal, the death of someone's character to me is an means to an end. Whether it be a target given to me during a takedown/war that I am close with or a decision made for productive or security purposes, the face on the account, or behind it, is not the most important factor. 

It does make for a good reason to catch a witness statement, though. When you want to hide something because you know there will questions asked, why wouldn't you try and keep the act from being discovered? 

At the end of the day though, Witness Statement catching works. If the only person who is present to the murder is an associate, then that's who witnessed the killing. 

I wouldn't call it 100% watertight though, as the number of people and who is online still narrows down the potential shooter and those they are associated with. If it is a high profile killing or takes a considerable amount of skill to pull off, then that just narrows it down even further. Ideal conditions I imagine would be during a period of high activity in a city which is not very populated.

I wouldn't call it 100% watertight though, as the number of people and who is online still narrows down the potential shooter and those they are associated with.

I guess that's why this regime has demoralised people to the point that there are as few as 27 folk on the 60s list at times.

http://www.mehwhatever.com/profile/pics/2017080610.png

This regime doesn't need to be online often or for long, they just need to execute anyone who puts forth effort; essentially closing off the game to anyone who they deem unworthy to be playing alongside them.

Like Izzy warned of - it's velvet rope syndrome; you're not on the list? Ok fuck off then, you're not welcome. Shocking considering three of the regime are Helpdesk operators who are supposed to be nurturing the game and helping it to grow, not excluding anyone they consider unworthy to play "their" game.

There's more to invest our time into the game than building guns and being in charge. Everything comes to an end, one day this will, too. The problem is that there are too many people vying to be that one shot that topples things. There are other things to do. Don't want to be perceived as a threat? Stop building a gun then.

Build relationships, make money, recruit and train new people, develop the community. Invest your time into being prepared for the day when things do come crumbling down. Bide your time, take it slow and steady. You go from 0 to 900 in 60 days then yes, you'll probably be suspected of having an agenda. You don't have to be a dominating renegade with the infamous title of regime killer. 

There is so much to be gained from training new people. When the day comes that you get your shot, everyone you've taught the game to will be there to support you. New people are a valuable resource because they are untainted by the politics and have only one person to look to as a role model, one person to look to to trust and owe loyalty to. You.

In the real world, when there is a clear controller of the power within a city, everyone ends up working for the same person. It's called peace, a state where everyone is making money and benefiting. 

What do the powers at the top gain from their position? Less work? Less effort? Less grief? Easy decisions? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

It's hard. I spent as little as a month running a city and the consideration and time you have to put into your work is immense. Why is everyone jumping at the opportunity of having that responsibility? And it is a responsibility, if you overthrow a regime just to sit on your ass, then there is no point in doing it in the first place. Nobody will love you for it. 

There are other things to do. Don't want to be perceived as a threat? Stop building a gun then.

Sure, that's one way to look at things. But there are a good subset of people in this game that enjoy building a gun. It's what they consider fun. They like to race, see how fast they can be, etc. So that entire subset of people should just stop? 

You're right, in a way. They have stopped. Many have gone IA or left the game completely. Because if they can't build, they don't want to play. They don't find enjoyment in the other aspects, the role playing or streets discussions. They don't have the patience to teach newbs. So they just won't play. That's how we end up with 27 people online. 

Think of it this way LG. What if someone came to you and said "you can live and play this game, but you cannot post. No role plays, no discussions, no posting. Even if you're completely honest, straightforward, show me everything you post ahead of time, etc, I don't care. If you post I will shoot you." Wouldn't that make the game less enjoyable for you? 

I think it's great you like to teach. But isn't that also the responsibility of the leadership? You just said, if you topple the existing regime to sit on your ass then there's no point in doing it. But isn't that what the current regime is doing? Activity is at such an all time low we cannot seem to get out of rebuild. 

We've seen a few things here and there. Failed free cities, some lame "competition city", etc. But no real growth. And the leadership doesn't seem to care. Other then Curtis and Grin, what leadership even comes into the streets these days? Where are Angy, Vivian, Kharon, Monster, Orange, Hank, Bunny, Princessa, etc? What are they doing to help promote activity in their cities, districts, etc? 

Grins new "knock down my business" idea shows some promise. He seems to genuinely want to help stir some interest in the business districts. But it seems too little too late. 

There's "peace" LG, and then there's just.... No morale. During real peace, things grow and blossom and people have fun. They get into other activities joyfully. And then there's what we have now. Depression. Mass exodus. People are miserable.  That's not Disorders problem, I realize that. He's doing his job from an in game standpoint. But it sure is Curtis' problem. And Squishys. And Ladyfighters. And Toby's. And all the other ooc staff whose job is to help keep the game running.

" what we have now. Depression. Mass exodus. People are miserable"

too true

There's a time to build a gun and a time to build a character, experience, wealth etc. It's probably not a period of time people are accustomed to, however that's where we're at. 

The opportunity to build strength and power has come and gone. That battle has been fought and won, it's something we need to accept. If people really care about playing this game, they'll understand that the options open to us have changed. There are still things to do here, though, which are as important to being an effective player as having a big gun. 

Among this subset of people who like to build guns, do we have leaders? Do we have people that can commit to the time and effort required to be an effective and dynamic change to the game? Or do we just have button clickers? If people are just here to build guns, what else are they going to be good for? We can't criticize activity levels of the current leaders while worrying about what all the poor button clickers are going to do, since they're not able to rack up the shots just to put one in a GFC.

There have been opportunities and initiatives rolled out over the last 6-9 months which I do not believe just popped into existence. Competition cities, pay-as-you-go crew leaders, publications etc all require a level of conceptualization and administration. Two people to vouch for Made Men? That is a step towards people taking the rank seriously, and in itself sounds like a crazy amount of admin to maintain.

Member activity wise... it's a Sunday, activity always dips. Only a last week there was up to 130 people online in the weekday evenings, so I'm not concerned too much for that. There are some activity grumbles, I can appreciate that. I've been wrong to assume in the past that a lack of presence in the streets = poor leadership. Nobody can comment on what goes on in a crew except those within that crew. If anyone was particularly unhappy with the leadership they were stuck under, we would probably know about it. I see no point at all in a crew with an upper structure which is completely inactive, though.

Responsibility of leadership is to lead, to manage and orchestrate. Those who hold the power have worked from the bottom up. Building, recruiting, training, posting. Now they need to manage the people doing those things and in some cases, entire cities or the whole game. If you had all that under your belt, would you just let it go, or do anything to protect what you've built?

I have been at the top table since I was green, 11 months ago.

During those 11 months, I've been a leader 3 times and a RHM for pretty much the remainder of it. 

In those 11 months, do you know how many people have approached me, expressed their concerns about how they have been treated and asked for my help? 0.

People who have asked me to put in a good word on their behalf? 0.

People who have asked me me what they need to change to avoid being killed in the future? 0.

People who have asked me to protect them? 0.

People who have done anything proactive whatsoever through communication with me? 0.

Now this potentially tells us one or two things; either I'm not viewed as important enough to seek out, which is plausible, stupid and mistaken, but plausible, or, much more likely, these people who you say are quitting aren't prepared to do something pretty simple to help themselves and actually engage in dialogue with those who hold sway.

I therefore don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people who choose not to help themselves.

And, w/s catching is a realistic and useful tactic. Having been on both sides of it over the last decade, I have no issue with it as a player of the game, although I know which side of the deal I prefer to be on.

And, and, my business district idea could provide a lot of entertainment. Hopefully people will take me up on it.  

So anyone who wants protection should seek out your blessing, Larry? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems like you're saying anyone who doesn't seek out your approval deserves to be removed? Even if they have more upper structure experience than you do?

I will grant you that your idea is novel and interesting, but you surely can't believe that's the reason you've had a recent spate of leadership experience? It's a very clear and obvious case of cronyism, from my perspective.

Fairly sure you were misunderstanding him, BabyFace. He wasn't saying seeking out his blessing was a surefire way to gain protection, he was stating that it hadn't been done.

Saying that despite the usual "complainers" or "bitchers" etc etc he has yet to have been approached in a way that implies these people are looking for other ways to enjoy this game other than shooting.

The bit about "even if they have more upper structure experience than you do" - really? I'm all for a good round of salt or two, but c'mon, put more effort into it, please... There really aren't too many players around with as much overall experience as Larry, and that's just a fact.

I have been at the top table since I was green, 11 months ago.

These are words from the mans own mouth. If someone has 12 months of upper structure experience, then by definition, surely they're more experienced, no? Admittedly, very few people have the levels of experience around these parts than Grin does, but when it comes to upper structure experience, the man has conceded his experience is less than 12 months. That's what I meant when I mentioned the "less experience".

...or, much more likely, these people who you say are quitting aren't prepared to do something pretty simple to help themselves and actually engage in dialogue with those who hold sway.

I therefore don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people who choose not to help themselves.

To me, these two statements suggest that if you care to live, seeking out Larry's... shall we say "help" as opposed to "blessing"? Are inviting death upon themselves. Again - perhaps I'm reading into something which is perhaps not intended, which is why I asked the question.

At the end of the day, I'm not gonna sit here comparing dick sizes but it's really quite simple to become a CL or upper structure when you're being protected and nurtured by the regime who executes folk for doing something a large number of folk derive a great deal of pleasure from.

Like Goldenrod has said - I find it fun to try to 'beat' my own best times to cap killer. It's not malicious, it's not done to threaten or attack the sitting regime, in the same way some people try to reach 60 units as fast as possible. It's just something I find fun to do, but to be killed for that? That is something I take umbrage to.

That's the bit you're mistaking, though, Larry was only stating he's been "on top" of this regime since then. He's held countless other CL and RH roles spanning much further back than 12 months, which is where my confusion arose.

Well if that is the case, then I have misunderstood what he was saying. I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong, and if I'm wrong, I'm happy to accept that. I don't care to follow bloodlines, so I'm entirely unaware of Grin's prior achievements, I just took what was said at face value. Happy to be corrected though.

'I try to beat my best time to cap killer'

If I'm Curtis, and you are not in one of my families I consider non threatening, and I find out you have a cap killer, or close to a cap killer, you're dead. Simple. Everyone complains that he is this tyrant that kills without cause...I feel that he doesn't kill enough. From my perspective, he should have cleansed CH a month ago for the happenings that went down there. But, I'm not him, he truly is not this big old mean guy that kills just because he can. He does so to stay on top, and to keep his family on top, and his decision making is just that...his.

I keep hearing murmurs 'Dang bruh, why you on his dick'... I've died by his hand just as much as anybody else, I don't know the guy, have never spoken to the man, but, I respect the way he does business, and I'm certain before his reign is over, I'll die a few more times for absolutely no other reason than I am loyal to my family, and I just didn't happen to be in one on the winning side.

Should that make me hate him? Should I despise a guy for working his ass off, surrounding himself with loyal soldiers that keep him alive? Fuck no, that's ludicrous. He plays the game the way he wants to play it. Why the hell should he change the way he plays because some of ya'll want to act like whiny little babies? Change the way YOU play, adapt, learn new strategies, whatever, but don't blame whoever is on top because you didn't make it to where they are.

I'm sure there wouldn't be such mass discontent if the world was a bustling place, lots of money was being made and the streets were open to spirited debate and conversation. However, that is not the case, is it? We've seen the site going into rebuild mode I don't know how many times since this regime took power and nowadays saying the wrong thing on the streets is more or less the only reason Curtis will deign to make an appearance there, threatening to kill the speaker. The place has turned into a tyrannical nightmare, and most people don't care for it, when all they come here to do is unwind and have a bit of fun.

As for me building a cap killer, well, that really shouldn't be Curtis's concern if I'm not in "his" city. The fact that it is just shows weak leadership from the other city leaders. He certainly shouldn't be able to shoot whoever he deems fit without authorisation, and for that city's Godfather to roll over and take it up the ass, that proves how incredibly weak the rest of the leadership is. He cowers in his ivory tower behind that weak leadership, bloodlining the same people over and over again, which shows he's not a real leader; he's a tyrant, running an oppressive regime.

Perhaps if the regime were more open to opportunity, then the 1% shots wouldn't be occurring and there would be no need for this cloak and dagger WS catching crap, which is what the basis of the discussion was originally... and in my opinion, the only reason for a WS catch when you're so far ahead of everyone else is because you're ashamed of the kill; you're embarrassed that you'll be caught bloodlining, again - something which is a generally considered a loathsome, cowardly and weak act of maliciousness... at least it used to be anyway.

BabyFace, you have misunderstood me and I have played the game for longer than 11 months. This reference 11 month reference point is used because that is the starting point of this regime, not the starting point of either my playing the game nor my experiencing success within it.

My point is that you and others like you have not taken any steps to help yourselves with me, one of the decision makers, at any stage during the period of this regime's operation. I would imagine that is pretty much a common theme across the board if I was to poll the other people in a similar position to myself too.

This is a pretty damning indictment of you and those like you when it should be readily apparent by now that in order to succeed under this regime you have to get to a stage where someone, like me, is prepared to vouch for you. But, instead of recognising this fact and engaging with those decision makers to build a relationship with them to help yourself, you've come crying to the OOC forum about how tyrannical, loathsome and cowardly we are. How do you imagine this will help? 

You also haven't even had the forethought to appreciate that the actual Mafia, who we are all trying to emulate, rarely took responsibility for kills and never for those it would not be advantageous for them to be associated with. This is exactly how witness statement catching works and I have seen previous regimes use this tactic as a premise for starting wars they needed to justify. It happens and it is a smart, realistic play which has and will continue to be around for the duration of the game. You need to get over it.

As for bloodlining, please. I would love to play the game as a new account, totally unrelated to my previous ones, but it is frankly impossible with how the majority of users view the game. Despite the things I do, I'm referred to as "Grin" the second it becomes apparent it is me clicking the buttons and writing the posts, even if I've done absolutely nothing aside from play my character. Look how many times is Disorder called Curtis; it is everywhere, despite them being totally unrelated. So again, I have little time to afford to people who whine about being "bloodlined" when they have absolutely no conception of how to separate the player from the account and until they do nothing will change.

Larry, this is an OOC forum. You're surely not suggesting that anything I post here will affect my IG character advancement? That would be a ludicrous thing to suggest, right? Furthermore, I don't believe I've referred to you by "Grin" or Disorder as "Curtis" in any of my in-character communication with or about either of you... although my memory is not what it once was, so perhaps you can quote me as saying something to that effect?

As you mention going beyond my own comfort zone and acquainting myself with those "in favour", well, actually - I did do that. I became acquainted with a man I had never spoken to previously - a man who (I believe) held an upper structure position with Curtis before being gifted his own crew. I earned his trust and hopefully his respect, only to be executed by Vegas, regardless of my position and despite the fact that I would have been vouched for, had the question been asked prior to the murder taking place... so whilst you can say that there are ways around these bloodlining tactics by being friendly, cooperative and honest, well, clearly there just aren't.

I shall, however, concede defeat with regards to your levels of experience. As I said - bloodlines mean very little to me. Just a shame I'm in the minority here.