How, exactly, does banning mugging "hurt the innocent", please?

?????????

Pickpocketing is not seen as an aggressive attack, mugging is. Pickpoecting does not affect the in game stats like timers etc. And you also get experience for doing it. Mugging is a direct attack that leads you unable to do certain things afterwards. This is why people dont like mugging.

I view pickpocketing as an aggressive act. I personally appreciate Izzy's stance.

Pickpocketing is not seen as an aggressive attack

Anyone who knows me, knows I love PPing. But I can't agree with that statement at all. Picking Pockets can tell you a lot about a target such as defence, its not just simply about taking their money. Many users dislike being PP'd and are within their rights to Mug anyone they feel has broken their personal stance on being PP'd.

Izzy is trying to ensure that all users have the right to react how they desire with regards to PPing.

Can you please explain how it can be an aggressive act? From my point of view, you act as a median to help a person get an achievement and some experience.

I don't mind close friends and sometimes family pping me. It ultimately depends on if I trust that person or not. If someone I don't know pickpockets me, then I personally view that as an aggressive attack - that is my opinion and it cannot be wrong.

IC: I am a Don in an organised crime syndicate and I am roleplaying a certain type of character; and if I gladly suffer a thief then I lose the faith I have in my character because that is now how he would react.

OOC: A pickpocket attempt may be an innocent bit of fun for some exp, or it may be an attempt  to gain info on my defensive stats and call me paranoid but if the assailant is someone I don't know then I don't want to take the chances.

Is mugging punitive in comparison to PP? Definitely. Should it be that way? Definitely. If there was no comeback, my 'dont pp' stance would be less than worthless. Mugging is a safety net that allows me to have away to defend myself, my principles and my preferences. It may be massively OTT in terms of the effect it has on an account vs. PPing, but the simple fact is you accepted the possibility of being mugged when you pped me.

For CL's to ban mugging is, in my opinion, an insult to their members.

On the flipside of the coin; the way it was dealt with was in my opinion overly confrontational and aggressive, and could have been approached much more diplomatically.

*not what he would do.

What I'm saying is, certain elements of this game will always be unrealistic. The open and public discussions on crime, the way guns are built, the fact Godfathers personally run drugs. I could go on forever, but these are concessions we make to make the game playable.

Aside from that, I want to try to be a mobster and act how I think a mobster would act as best I can because, forfuckssake, this is a Mafia Role Playing game. If the ruling elite remove an option available to me that is very much the option an actual mobster would take, that hampers my enjoyment of the game and limits the potentially to truly play out my character.

People are comparing this to wack and 'oh, that got banned but there's no outcry about that'. I don't know if this comparison is deliberately stupid and people are just trying to get a rise, but they are clearly different:
 

Minion: Some guy tried to shoot me, can I kill him?
Crewleader: No. We'll deal with it 'cause of the politics, but we've got your back

End result; the hitman takes a dirt nap, or the aggrieved party gets a financial settlement after a sit down. This is how things happen here, and this is how things would happen in the Mob. As an act, it will not go unpunished  regardless of which city the perpetrator is from. What cannot be tolerated is the aggrieved party being a vigilante and shooting someone in cold blood in retribution. These things were/are not done without a sitdown and the right heads being nodded

Minion: Some guy just robbed me, so I beat the shit out of him
Crewleader: Why did you do that?! He's from the same neighbourhood/City as us!

This is preposterous. Let's suspend disbelief for a moment because the concept of pickpocketing between mob members is a ridiculous concept; but again a sacrifice of realism in the quest of game playability. What can be realistic, though, are the responses to the concept. You think a Leader would ban a member from protecting himself or his assets? Let's recall that to touch a made man in any way is to earn a death warrant at a sit down. Let's recall the mob valued the almighty dollar as much as anything. The entire preposition that a Crewleader would be upset with his guy for beating the shit out of a thief is simply retarded.

In fact, even taking pickpocketing as something lighthearted and fun - the laziest of Google searches will reveal instances of mob associates being beaten senseless by someone in the same crew for making the wrong joke about someone's weight, or a jibe about which way they swung, or how big their nose was.

The concept we have of Mob Bosses ruling over every detail of a member's life with a fine toothcomb is ridiculous. If it's one the Leaders want to pursue because that's how they believe the Mob would act, than that's their prerogative; but when it impacts upon a majority of the site who may now been unable to take the action of what the mob would have actually done, it's unfair.

On the subject of wacking (that keeps being brought up on IRC) I also point you to dueling, a feature that allows individuals to settle their differences without the chain of command, and without any interference. This is a feature that is not banned by the Leaders. Given that as a precedent, is it really plausible that the Leaders of some of the biggest factions of organised crime would get so actively and personally involved on such minor disputes (PPing/Mugging) on a regular basis? I'm sorry, but I can't. Every time a pp/mug complaint comes up from a CL it makes me inwardly cringe because it's so ridiculously unrealistic.

Pickpocketing is not seen as an aggressive attack

Anyone who knows me, knows I love PPing. But I can't agree with that statement at all. Picking Pockets can tell you a lot about a target such as defence, its not just simply about taking their money.

True true.  I came very close to shooting you once for pping me.. tbh, I probably should have taken the shot, but that's another story. 

I wish admins would just let us play the game in the way we feel is best.  I play your game, and I am a customer.  I feel like I am being berated by this thread, even though I didn't endorse any anti-mugging rules in the first place.  Customers shouldn't be made to feel berated by the owners of the product they enjoy. 

Mug me and I will treat you like someone who just beat the shit out of a LHM. Because you'll have just beaten the shit out of an LHM.

Remove mugging and pickpocketing. Lets see how everyone likes that.

Reacting violently to a situation you bring upon yourself when you PP someone and they mug you is ridiculous.

It's pretty simple to understand. If you don't want to be mugged don't fucking pick pocket.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong but... this is an RP game? All of us are RP'ing a certain character? So.... if the people who run cities want to RP a character that doesn't tolerate mugging... shouldn't they be allowed to? 

Maybe I've never really understood this game. My bad.

Same sentiments I have with Mcluvin.

You said you want to preserve the options for the players to make . I would say that it is in character when the leaders impose their own rules regarding features that are introduce, on this case " mugging " .  So isn't contradictory when you said that you want the players to have their own options to make ?

I remember a time when a certain Crewleader back then have made a street thread at the time he get auth that his family will not have any NPM, he acts in character and use his status as a leader to make that rule . 

Correct me if I'm wrong , but isn't that the people here strive to be on top so that they can form their community/family/city  the way THEY see fit. 

No Viene, it's their way or the highway. Something that has become more obvious recently.

Personally I think it's a disgusting attitude to have towards people who pay their wages. "Here...play our game, you have total control, but if you do somethiing we don't like we're stepping in and changing it". It won't fly for much longer.

Now, I do not donate and never have to MR. Why? Because of constant interferences like the one we had tonight. I don't feel I get value for my money... however there are a lot of people who do spend quite a bit here and the way the author of this thread spoke on IRC was amazingly condescending considering how much some do for this place (I'm really not putting myself in this category).

It's every GF or acting GF's right to set down their own rules, not the admins.

I hope it changes, I sincerely do. With the dwindling number of players playing RP games like this and moving onto more mobile-friendly and less time-consuming games its hard to keep hold of players here or even get them here in the first place.

I think some people need to take a long hard look at themselves... yes, you put the hours in to keep the place running, but a lot of users put just as many hours into playing (if not more) AND spend their money here. Just remember that.

I don't at all respect the fact that a CL/GF can take away my right to defend myself from an attack that doesn't require the loss of one account. I also think it's fairly insane that people actually think it's alright for them to render features useless. I mean what is the point of expanding the game an adding anything when 18 people can take it away from 200? There is no point.

The whole concept of banning a defensive feature that is totally avoidable fucking baffles me to no end.

yes, you put the hours in to keep the place running, but a lot of users put just as many hours into playing (if not more) AND spend their money here.

That's why it annoys me, I put hours in, who the fuck are they to tell me I can NEVER use a feature. At least there is only certain restrictions that protect the innocent as far as wack, the feature is still usable. To BAN a feature from me is ludicrous and unacceptable for a few people to even consider.

What's crazy is that I loved this game and have no problem with how it's ran. The thing that's been slowly pushing me away is the user base, I guess I finally just broke and lost all will to play. This isn't 8 years ago, grow with the game or move along, it's simple.

I think the major point that is being argued is "We have put in this feature and people wish to use it, so if you don't let them use it, we will punish you". I'm not very fond of this aspect as this is a game I play because I have the chance and opportunity to (Or.. So I'm told I do by the game) do whatever I like, whenever I like, and how I like to do it.

Following your CL's rules are a lot like life to be honest. If your boss asks you to not do something, it doesn't mean that you CAN'T do it, because you're your own person... You are more then welcome to do whatever your heart desires, just know that you might not have that job after going against his rules. In the workplace, they might put in a rule out of nowhere, out of the blue... Does that mean you quit your job over it? If you like. Like I said, it's your own choice.

I do my best to see arguments from both sides and in the others shoes, because that's what controversy is all about and everyone has their reasons even if someone else believes they're wrong.

The beauty of this game was to get to the top so you can make your own rules, without distraction or being held back.

I'm a business owner, poker machines. Frankly, if I have a rule in my business that says 'No smoking cigarettes'. Someone fires up a cig, I kick them out, they aren't allowed to come back. As the BUSINESS OWNER (CL) that's my choice to make those rules... Because why? I own the mother fucker lol.

For a few months now, things are being pulled further away from the CLs and their ability/power to run their crew/district/city how they like.

I don't see why this is a big deal to the admins when there are other things that need the attention. Far more attention. You think you have a hold on the -4 hour problem? No. People still shoot them and finally some leaders are started to make rules against that. As a userbase, not admins. In truth, we can shoot any -4 because the game isn't coded for us to do differently.

You don't like the function being used? Take it out. Take out the wack function and take out the BGs, everything. It kinda makes me sick taking power away from a CL.

That's like God burning down my business, even though I might be the business owner, and saying he did it for the people who use my business. How you do know what's best for my business and those I associate with? This game is based on what's good and bad business for your city/district (Don't want to offend anyone with a type saying only city). Now if something happened in game over a mugging/PP, the CLs come together to try and work something out on the matter, but someone eventually just says "Nothing I can do, Izzy made it this way and I'll get punished if I change it or go against it."

To me, that's bullshit. Annoying. And highly unfair to those who with to make their own set of rules.

Yes, we had a convo earlier about how I would let others in my family switch if they found they would try harder somewhere else. Yes, I gave them that option to do so. But, they also have the option to ask me about my rules before joining up. If I change a rule in the middle of my CL run, then they will just have to adjust like the CL does.

Typically if Sticks wanted to make the rule "NO MUGGING PERIOD FROM ANY CITY", he should be able to. Fuck, if Sticks says that each of his members must pay him 50 mill a week (which is really impossible for the most part) he should be able to. If sticks demands that they include him in every OC his family has, he should be able to. That's the beauty of being hard earned CL and making your rules.

If they don't like your rules then find a way to get them to a place they will enjoy more.

I just don't like the admin interference... Ws as players, members, CLs, GFs, whatever, should be able to set rules how we want and play the game how we please.

If I owned a city and I had a rule "If you sleep overnight in my city, you must pay to do so". You really going to take that right from me? Well, I guess you could... But that's what I'm getting at, you shouldn't. It's not your place Izzy.

We gave into the dueling and understood why, and people understand why you put you're mad people are trying to tell others not to use the mugging feature... But that's their right on a game like this to do whatever they please. Well, should be their right.

Mugging is a feature... Cool. It still pisses people off when it happens sometimes, just like random shooting.

Actually, I'm done before this turns into a novel that I can't take back. Taking power from CLs on an admin level is just meh, and as much backlash that is coming back from it... You figure you would see it and realize "hey, maybe these people should do what they want and run their crews how they like". But it's starting to now even become that anymore lol. We aren't able to run crews how we like with each little bit of interference.

I think their should be an admin punishment on actual rogues in the game. Suspend their next character or something, because that's basically what's going on here. Being punished for being the role/position you're in and doing things how YOU want to.

Rest in Peace to this saying - "Mafia Returns - The Game! In a world set in 1930 Mafia Time - the action is yours. The reaction is not."

The action is certainly not in the hands of those who have put in the time, effort, money, dedication, and patience to get into the positions they're in. The action is in the admin to change it if they don't like it.