I know that this topic has been beaten to death, and I should probably just let it die, but I haven't had the chance to put my two cents in yet, so here goes:

You can not justify leaving a crew.  We say that, once you are made, the only way out is death, but it is really well-known that this starts with your acceptance of the crew invite.  Once you have seen the inside of a crew's HQ, you are not to make it in to another one alive.  That's just how it works.  Everyone knows it.

Additionally, I'm shocked to see so many publicly questioning the actions of crew leaders and godfathers.  And in a disrespectful manner, too.  It's one thing to think something--no one agrees with everything that goes on around here--but it's quite another to say it.

Between jumping ship and publicly bashing leaders, I don't know what's gotten into us youngsters these days.

Cunning, yesterday I thought about what you said and thought it better to not post about this topic. You are right, it indeed has been beaten to death. Anyway, about seeing the inside of the HQ and then leaving a family. I WAS going to say something about that but then I thought,  if this man thought it was an importance to make sure that his son knew the information of Hickey's HQ, would he not include it in the journal to be passed down? It's not likely he would forget so really there is nothing you can really do about that aspect. Unless of course you change everything in the HQ around. Plus, it's not like a mere gangster would be inside the loop of the big guns of the Hit Squad is it. I'm not trying to justify the man's actions for leaving, I am simply asking a question to have clarity on the subject.

I thought someone might call me on that aspect.  Let me first say that I stand by my original statement that, "Oh, he couldn't have done any harm anyway," does not, in any way, justify jumping ship.

That being said, there are pieces of critical information (such as crew structure, including HSL, etc) that a mere gangster may have access to.

It's true that this information can always be passed down through generations, but that certainly is not a valid reason why the offending gangster should be kept alive:  "Oh, he already knows all that he could know, anyway, so we might as well let him go."  For the record, my first claim, "once you have seen the inside of a crew's HQ..." was more figurative than literal.  It is more about respect than physical danger, and it is much more a matter of principal than anything else.

Leaving one organization to join one in a another city altogether is completely indefensible.

Think about this logically, you're on the street, you've been making yourself a little money from knocking over a few stores and the like. You're a petty thief, a nobody, you need to make at least something of a name for yourself before someone in organized crime even considers taking you in. Assuming that you've made enough of an impact to be noticed, you're either likely approached/accosted by a local heavy, warning you away from their turf or you have the sense to realise that nobody out here survives on their own. Hopefully you manage to strike up enough of a relationship and demonstrate to this connected guy that you can be more useful to him kicking up, than you would be with broken legs.

This would likely take weeks and months, maybe even years to move up a rung in the actual organized crime world. Maybe you prove yourself capable enough that a respected Wise Guy hears about you and thinks you might be useful to him on a job, maybe. Maybe you never make it. Bear in mind that in our time, if you can't trace your ancestry back to the old country, you wouldn't even be considered for being Made. Many well connected and powerful guys never became Made for this reason.

The point to all this?

In our world these things are sped up and by and large, it is simply a matter of walking around that gets you into a crew. However, we have to assume that you've actually done all of the above and this is an organized crime family. Sure, you aren't a fully fledged member yet, but you're an associate of it. If you think for a second these guys would let you trundle off to work for someone else, in another family entirely, making them money, you need a reality check. Once you start hanging around, you're expected to stay on board.

Forget information, forget betrayal, forget everything else. It isn't about any of that and the reality of our world is that none of that is particularly important anyway. Any competent leader knows the power structure of other families and they can recognise who is likely to be a threat and who isn't without having to see the inside of someone's headquarters. All that matters is that you, as a lower level guy made your decision of who to run with. There are very few realistic circumstances that you can expect to walk away from that decision unscathed.

wow tahts crazy

I can definitely say that I see this in a totally different light now. Unlike the use by alot of mobsters, coming to voice yourself in the streets can teach us young bucks a thing or two of how things are done in the eyes of a true leader. Thank you, GodFather Gwarble.

I've killed for less.  End of story.

Thanks for that piece of informative spiel, Teddy.

I'm in disagreement with certain factors of this scenario, while I'm not defending the actions of the deceased I think there is an underlying issue which has become blurred due to how the events were purported or at least which are the focus and ire of the masses.

Throughout time, in this thing of ours associates have and I hope will continue to defect and not always in acrimonious circumstances, of course there are protocols that must be followed as this case overwhelmingly proves but it isn't impossible and shouldn't be viewed as taboo just because the current generation deem it unacceptable. We are in many ways defined by our history and this subject is important to our future, rewriting the books with a loose interpretation of our ways poses just as much of dangerous threat as any other feature of our lives.

Our perceptions will always differ and I understand the current regime is the standard bearer and I wont defy my people, I have my beliefs and understandings but also my rules, they're separate entities which stops potential destruction of precedents.

I hope some of this makes sense, I'm trying to convey my general concerns, these are grey areas I suppose, of which we have plenty but I think it's important to keep them as such instead of fundamental rules which we can't interpret for the communities benefit.

OOC: Is that ridiculously tiny because I copied and pasted?

Please don't mock as I feel a size complex approaching.

(Please don't happen again.)

Hildebrand strains to hear Wayfarer

Speak up lad. No one has yet dressed you down, so no need to be timid.

Wayfarer for Spokesperson of The Month.

Yes, Wayfarer, a truly riveting and well-put contention.  It's not easy to represent a generally opposing view with such tact, and you've certainly done so in this case.

SilentKnight, if your words before were earnest, "I can definitely say that I see this in a totally different light now..." and so forth, then I am pleased, and happy to have met you.  You are a shining example of a discussion I had with some friends the just the other day.

Thank you, Cunning. I appreciate that alot.

The current generation and any generation thereafter should deem this unacceptable.

There is no logical argument that can be purported that will ever make it alright to buy out of one organization and join another in an entirely different city. The surrounding events and ultimately Hickey's death are irrelevant, you never buy out. It is tantamount to running away, when they find you, you will be punished.

If you believe otherwise, unfortunately, your beliefs aren't applicable to our business.

Hickey is dead!!!!

<em>Runs off to buy a paper and check the Obits</em>

Squire's death.

Judge Death see's a chance to lighten the mood somewhat, an unusual thing for a death dealing corpse to do, but in the interests of harmony and spreading more intercity co-operation it is something he feels that he must do.

Interesssting FFFreudian ssslip ther Godfffather Gwwwarble... one cccould almmmossst infffer that you are predicccting another viccctimmm fffor the 'People wwwe wwwissshed had died' ssseccction offf the Gwwwarble Barble, due out on the 12th offf Jelemmmber I believe.

Woooo, That slip of the tongue was nearly as big as Ray_Carling. Heyoo.

Well in my opinion, it is a gangster, and when they accept your invite, they have no idea of what your rules are, what if they don't agree with some of them, and wish to leave. Though if he did not request permission first then I see your problem, but I feel that a cash amount could have been made up in punishment.

RIP Hickey.