There have been numerous discussions on these very streets surrounding what qualities it takes to be a mademan and what it means to be a mademan but I am not sure it has even been discussed what skills it takes to be one.

When I talk about qualities I mean things like: respect, honour, loyalty, omerta, dedication, etc. When I talk about skills I mean things like: shooting, pickpocketing, business owning, public speaking, earning, teaching, mentoring, entertaining, etc.

Reading through journals and listening to conversations I have run into two instances that I found interesting.

One, a consigliere had just begun to learn about the skill of shooting. He asked a family member if he was allowed to shoot someone with a -48 tattoo. The comment given was "shouldn't a consig know this by now?" I assume it was written into the rules of this crew that people with -48 tattoos were not to be shot, however if this consig had never intended, until this point in time, to shoot it is possible they did not concern themselves with that rule. He seemed to be intelligent enough to seek clarification before getting trigger happy at least. Regardless of their shooting skill, they seemingly had proven their qualities to their upper structure in order to be given this rank.

Another overheard conversation was a gentleman, who had made it to boss, who asked his crewleader to take his life because he felt he did know enough skills or enough people to properly honour his rank. Upon investigating further this gentleman was highly regarded within his crew and by members of his Godfather's family for his entertainment skills within the business district. He had proven his qualities to his family it seems but he felt his skills were lacking.

So my question for debate is: Can mademen, after proving their qualities, be promoted without having all skills down? Can a person specialize in one or two skills and still be made a member of their family or do they have to have competency in all skills before they earn their button?

This is an interesting thought. And one that has prompted me to think carefully about my response.

In my opinion, Made Men should not have to have 'all' the skills down. At the end of the day people will always specialize in one or two things, whether it be shooting, speaking, entertaining, earning etc. To deny a hard working, worth Mafioso the position of Made Man, simply because he hasn't built a cannon, or because his earnings aren't as good as the next guys, in my eyes would be quite absurd.

Obviously, as a crewleader, you and other CL's. Promote those who they see fit. Overall, i believe it is a matter of opinion and personal preference. Personally, I wouldn't hold someone back because they had poor Vision or didn't have a cannon.

For me, becoming Made is all about trust and special abilities. Not everyone in the Mob is a hitman. Not everyone rolls in cash. Not everyone can give a fantastic speeh. But every person is unique and every person, providing they put in the work and show their loyalty. Deserves a chance.

Utopia listens to what the speaker has to say before stating his own opinion

I think a leader is right to look at the qualities of their possible members (ie. omerta,respect,dedication) before skills. And when the leader feels that their member has proven they have these qualities they should look for their possible member to show they have some skills to make them more useful to the family. Out of the previously mentioned skills I would consider earning to be the number one. After that the other skills such as shooting would simply be an added bonus to the family but not compulsary to all associates looking to get "straightened out"

I heartily agree, Neville, and I am actually glad that this point has been brought up today.  I just had this discussion with a couple associates over the past few days.  In both cases, I asserted that skill choice, or a "profession," is solely personal preference.

Of course being a "well-rounded" individual is a nice thing.  Skills in one area bleed an advantage in to another, but, as you've mentioned, everyone has their own forte.

An old wise man once tattooed these words onto my brain...

Omerta, Onore, Sangue, Famiglia

These are the qualities that should be looked at before even membership is given a thought. Can this person be trusted? How will this peron represent themselves? Will they work well with others? All these questions come into play before membership is even given a thought. Or so, thats how I think.

As Neville has stated, it should be up to the organization leader/Crew Leader to make their stand. Personal preference should be the key in this because who is to tell you you shouldn't promote someone and accept them into your inner circle? It should solely be the Crew Leader's decision to promote someone. Why? Because they will be representing that one individual and their organization. They need to be trusted a hundred and ten percent.

Back to the topic at hand Ms. Whatsername, skills and special abilities should be second at hand. I completely have the same views as Neville's.

Earning your button is all about trust. With trust you can do anything. Certain people will not pocess the whole skill set. Certain people will perform better than others in certain areas but this is why it's a criminal organization. I'll use the gay saying, "There's no I in team".

I do enjoy this topic at hand though.

Michael sits back waiting eagerly to hear other responses.

Personally I believe that if a person specializes in a specific task that it may overcome some inadequacy that they may have in another area but at the same time they need to have enough skills in the other parts of our life that they can be a contributing member of their family.

I think an analogy that describes my point would be that just because a basketball player can dribble the ball better than anyone else doesn't mean anything if they can't pass or shoot. That person wouldn't be able to contribute to their team. To bring this around to the topic at hand, if a man in our walk of life can earn a ton of money but doesn't have the loyalty or intelligence to go with it, they can't contribute to their family. He or she wouldn't be fit to be a made man.

With all that being said I would be willing to say that a man who can specialize in a specific task but perform the other tasks adequately can be given some a little leeway as long as they can still contribute to their family. Theres a very subjective balance that would need to be struck to make a person like this understand where they stand and determining how they will contribute to their family and city. It would depend on the skills that the particular leader values most and which skills would benefit the family most.

RoRoG thanks the crowd for their attention before he goes out to see the Knickerbockers game.

I think the simple answer is no-one can be 100% perfect.

That said, I think your sectioning and displacement of the skills and qualities required are justifiable.

I've known totally loyal people, people that can offer so much to the family but may be eccentric in nature,though trusted and loyal so much so they are accepted into the family.

I think, without giving too much away of course,again it comes down to the family in question.

In conclusion I would take qualities over skills, but sometimes, it just does not work like that.

Demetrio takes one last buff off his cigarette before throwing it to the ground and steps on it to put it down, he then clears his throat before he starts talking

Let me first salute you ma'am, for having a smart debate in the streets, that we have missed for a while, I can't remember when was the last time I seen one, but I am sure it wasn't soon.

Regarding your question ma'am, We don't seek perfection, No one is perfect I believe. We can't be 100% skilled at every skill of this life, You can't be a skillful pickpocketer/thief , hitter, street speaker, earner at the same time. You won't be able to do that at the same time. I doubt someone would be able to give enough time to be skilled at everything without lowering the amount of time he gives to improve another skill , not even if you live for this. That's without adding the tons of other skills we need people skilled at.

Perfection is something we don't seek at our mobsters, What we seek is people good at what they do, Which at the end creates a perfect family or get it close to perfection, if a family has a group of skilled players at each skill they need, I think they would do better than a family, having a couple of members who are pretty good at every skill.

Demetrio lights another cigarette as he goes to the corner to listen to the rest of the replies.

I can't agree more to "No one is 100% perfect."

Some people have their own qualities which makes them unique, some have skills like others and some have skills like others. There are different people with different skill, but without he or she demonstrating their skill and quality, I don't think she/he should receive their Made Man button. Like many others that have made this point many times in the streets I shall point this out too. Made Man is a honorable, respectable position, that I think should be difficult enough for the person to achieve. Talents come in everyone its the CLs job to see their talents, in other words their qualities and skills.

Can mademen, after proving their qualities, be promoted without having all skills down?

My simple answer for that question in short is that, it depends on what the Made Man does to impress you, No one can't be 100% perfect at nailing down all the qualities , like Boss said, respect, honor, loyalty, omerta, dedication, of course these are simple things that a Wise Guy should have to receive his button, its not that hard showing respect, something a Thug should already have after coming into the crew, honor will come in time after realizing some things in this thing of ours, Omerta is basically something to fit into loyalty to your boss and crew, something a new mobster should already know considering he signed the rules in which one of them including being silent about what goes on around the HQ. Dedication is another thing, dedicating, giving you life and blood for the protection of the crew, shouldn't be too hard thinking how loyal you are to your family.

When I talk about skills I mean things like: shooting, pickpocketing, business owning, public speaking, earning, teaching, mentoring, entertaining.

Now this is something no one and can be perfect at..I think. Some people have different skills like I've said earlier, I can say that anyone can be good at least 5 of these skills, with proper training and dedication, and um NOT being lazy, standing up and doing work around and around. So in my opinion no one has to nail all these skills down, but has to show effort in some. That's what I think.

What a great point you have made, Whatsername.

Although both a mobster will need qualities and skills to progress in this thing of ours, I truly believe and agree with my boss Clarence, that your qualities will get you a bit further than your skills. That being said, being known as a respected and honorable mobster in this mafia, you are set and equipped to go far. In my opinion, yes skills do count but not as much as your qualities. Its not meant for everyone to know how many crimes you have done or how many people you have simply pickpocketed or killed. What matters is, do you have it in you to become one of the next most loyal,dedicated,devoted,loyal,eager,hardworking and most of all respectful leader within the mafia? Those are outstanding QUALITIES that we need in mobsters nowadays. May I ask, does that require skill?

Once again, this is a great point that you have made known, Whatsername.

After hearing the question ePiC mades some thoughts on it.

This one is a good question and actually it is also a challenge to every one of us. Why did I say it is a good challenge to every one of us? As what I have observe we as individual has different kinds of talents, abilities and skills that we are self the only one who knows it. But others keep it a secret for themselves and let other don’t see it, for what reason we don’t know. Skills, abilities talents makes us differ to each other, and make us to what we ourselves in that ranks and positions. Maybe there are people out there who been at their rank without any other skills but to make money for his leaders, well that is his skills, he deserve that rank because of that skills we cannot force anyone to use their guns or to go outside to make a little speech just to be at the upper structure, what I mean his skill is his alone even he don’t have that gun power, he has other qualities that make him deserve to be at the upper structure, although it is still up to him if he want to explore and try to expand his other abilities.

As we all know we have people dedicate their self to be the best at one ability or skills because he knows he cannot be as good as the other at the other skills.

Now for the challenge to every one of us and to the leaders as well, in your family if you see a mademan or higher rank that only knows how to make money, will you come to him and teach him other skills so he can develop it and grow with the family as what the others did. Will you have time to explain to him how far he can go to this society? Will you be able to lead him even he outrank you, to the best, so the family will have a better and more reliable members your family.

I think the best way to impress a boss is to earn.  Certainly shooters are very important as well, but a mafioso who keeps there head down and earns is also very valuable.  This alone can be enough to get into the upper tier of a family.

An interesting point I would like to bring up is that sometimes we are seeing a new bloodline to this world.  That is to say there fathers or mothers never were part of the mafia way of life, so some of these skills, such as wacking schlubs is foreign to them.  Often times a first in a bloodline can live for a long time because they have a low profile, and as long as they don't do something stupid, they don't attract a lot of attention or they come into this world and pick a strong family which lives for a long time.  This means they will can rob enough post offices to impress there boss enough to promote them.  This doesn't make them unworthy as they have dedicated there time and hard work to the family.

In conclusion every hard working member is a cog in the great machine of a family.   Regardless what size cog you are, or what your role is, you are important to make the machine run.  Skills such as wacking are great bonuses to the overall strength of a family, but I don't think are needed to advance.

It's an interesting question being presented here. One that doesn't have a simple answer as I see it.

First we address the qualities. The qualities are a must. They are non-negotiable. The qualities are the bare minimum that a person has to show to even be considered to become a mademan. Once the qualities necessary in a person are established, only then is it time to consider the question "Is this enough?".

In my opinion it is not. Simply being a good friend who will follow rules and not spout off at the mouth does not qualify you to be put in the company of those who truly dedicate themselves to the business in which we all at least strive to be in. Does this mean that you have to master every aspect of of this business to then reach the position of mademan?

Again the answer is no. It's unrealistic to expect everyone to know everything at any time much less at the point where they may be indoctrinated into our organization. They should, however, provide something for their crew. Something about them that stands out then when asked what role they play in your crew there is actually an answer. I'm not for holding back anyone simply because their earnings aren't high enough, their gun isn't good enough, or they don't show up in the coffee shops and do a little soft shoe to entertain us.

No one can be everything to everyone. It's an unrealistic expectation but you can certainly expect anyone hoping to achieve the prestigious rank of mademan to offer something in the way of usefulness to their crew. So in my opinion the answer is that you cannot and should not expect every person to have mastered every art of this thing of ours to become a mademan but you certainly should expect them to offer something to improve your organization before making him or her a full member of it.

After having being standing in a corner and listening a number of speakers speak from the crowd, JesTer moves up to the stage to present some of his thoughts !!

Well I would ageree that no one can expertise in each and every skill of this game at one time (but only a genius, and not everyone is a genius) as for the masses everyone will have expertise in one or two skills of this game Either be it a hitter or earner or a good speaker.

As per my views what makes a successful family is a hard working crew, and everyone playing there part according to their expertise in the family.Thats why it is there in the family structure for you to choose what character you would like to be, a hitter or an earner or anything else as per the family needs.

And miss you speaking about a conig not knowing about -48 wacking rule, I think that has to be the basic requiremnt for promoting anyone to MM, that they should atleast know basic rules of this world, they should know basics about a hitter or a pickpocketer or how to be a good earner so that they can train new comers, how one would expect them to teach a sponsor if they themselves don't know the following basic rules (that can lead to some very bad consequences, a MM or above making a basic mistake).

This is a good conversation. I like the distinction you make between the arbitrary and the more pricipled decisions we must make regarding morality or a set of requirements. While some moral yardstick must enter into the decision to hand out the button, in my view keeping your head down and earning me boatloads of money is pretty honorable. I always try to remember that it is all for the money, so I make earnings paramount. I think the fact a certain level of money has flowed in is a good indicator of skills in quite a few area's that matter most. Beyond that, things like a gun, street speaking, HQ presence, and leading associates are what seperates regular men of honor from those capable of leading them well. I would not try to assign a particular skill or set of skills to any particular rank, but I would certainly consider a man worthy of promotion as he showed competence in each area over time. I also agree with everyone that very few can do it all well, diversity is a fact of our life and a good leader tries hard to use it.

Resurgam listens to the various contributions made and approaches the front of the gathered throng. Clearing his throat as he stubs out a cigarette with the heel of his foot, he begins to speak..........

By the time anyone reaches the level to which the rank of Made Man becomes the next step, I  believe the upper structure of the family should already have a clear indication of the various avenues to which this individual would be best suited.

At an early stage of any mobsters career, the level of contact and communication with their superiors is paramount in order to ascertain the strengths and weaknesses that are present in them.

I too have read in my fathers diaries and journals of instances that are not dissimilar from the ones given in the initial speech of this debate. Such things can result in anything from embarrasment to a major incident which in my opinion, is an indication of the lack of communication throughout a particular individuals career and their peers.

We must not lose sight of the fact however, that the strengths and weaknesses of a Wiseguy, may still be lurking in the shadows should they be fortunate enough to reach the dizzy heights of a leader.

As said by a number of contributors already, for someone to possess all of the attributes necessary to become an "all rounder" is not as frequent an occurence as one might think.

Whatsername? very interesting topic you bring to us. Now on to the question at hand, "Can mademen, after proving their qualities, be promoted without having all skills down? Can a person specialize in one or two skills and still be made a member of their family or do they have to have competency in all skills before they earn their button?"

First, The qualities that you listed are a must no exceptions to the rules should be given no matter what. Those things are foundation for success within a person and it makes us who we are as a person.

Next, skills is something else you need to have, you don't have to be good at them but should be able to do them if requested to do so. Some of us were born with gun attached to the side of us and other were born with the doctor's wallet in our little hands. If one lack in one skill I'm sure the skill they have a natural talent for makes up for it. There is no such thing of a weak member just because they can't handle a gun or steal someones wallet. I will say if the member lacks in a certain area with time,dedication,etc that they will be just as good as the next person. No one can put a limit on a member on what they can or can not do unless that person choses to put that on themself.

BUT!

I do believe if wiseguy that has shown the qualities of respect, honour, loyalty, omerta, dedication, etc and only can offer a small amount of skills and also show knowledge and able to perform the skills they might happen to lack are entitled to his or her button.

Louie_Bruno doffs his fedora and slowly stands. He clears his throat as he glances around the room, unsure if he should speak out. After all, these are men who clearly outrank him, and he knows better to ruffle any feathers. However, he feels compelled to make a point...

"Excuse me, sirs. Might I have word?". The men nod, giving him the floor. "I know I am just a lowly earner, but I'd like to make an analogy. All the points I've heard have merit. Bear with me, but the way me and some of the other boys look at it is that we all have our roles. Just like in society. I mean, what kind of world would it be if everyone was a doctor, or lawyer, or a laborer? The whole economy would collapse. Don't get me wrong, I think there are too many lawyers as it is, right?" A few chuckles coarse around the room. "What would happen to a family if it was full of nothing but earners? Well, they would be taken down by a family with stronger muscle, eventually. You know, survival of the fittest. And what if a family was made up of nothing but assassins and murdering thugs? Well they would go broke cuz no one would be earning money, and they couldn't pay their people. Capiche? Us lower ranked guys may be simple-minded, but we understand how things break down. We know a family should be well-rounded and we trust you bosses with making the right decisions to put us in the right spots to be successful. If we by chance happen to get a guy who's a prodigy and can do everything, then by St. Christopher's blessing, you will reward him accordingly, and I promise you the other guys won't get disgruntled. In the words of the great Judge Smells (Caddyshack), "The world needs ditch diggers too". So, we know some guys ain't cut out to be higher-ups. Thats it. Thanks for letting put my two cents in."

Louie strolls back to his chair and sits down, crossing his legs as the bosses mumble between themselves, ruminating over his words...

I think for me, I can put this subject simply as, picking my poison. What do I mean by this, well from the moment I step foot in this world I decide what paths I will be walking down and how and what I have to do to get there. Now I know that I cannot be and do everything my mentality is, if I concentrate on two or three things then naturally something else will suffer I can and do except that because I will be the best at what I do.

I don’t think you can be the best at everything this world has to offer, so I pick niche and perfect that, if anything else arose then that would be an after thought. I think it’s important as a crime world that we are not naïve towards this subject. I agree to be made is a mile stone in our world and something that has to earned, but we need to not lose focus, it should all depend on the person in question.

If I was a CL, yea right, comes from the back of the crowd, I would depend this honour on the specific person, I don’t think its right to set guide lines as a whole, its should be dependant on that person, their skills, what they have brought, there potential etc. Nobody has it all, or if they do they are stronger in specific areas than others.

I don’t think its right to set guide lines as a whole, its should be dependant on that person, their skills,

This is something that I personally agree with. In my eyes if an organisation has requirements Set in stone.. then to me it makes the Made Man Promotion much less meaningful, rather than if you have to work your hardest at everything and show that you do have a small skills base. Obviously, as i said earlier, this does not mean you have to do everything. But having to show that you're working hard and trying your best, makes the button ceremony much more meaningful and rewarding.