Thugs could be hands before this latest change. 

Squishy doesn't want to restrict leaders by forcing them to use people based on rank as hands. He caught a lot of flack for it when he did do it.

When a huge war wiped out the majority of the site there were very few above Made so he made the temporary change. With the number of times we do war and it devastates the site it's easier just to leave it than change the code every time.

Chances of him changing it back are slim to none now that he's publicly announced that it's permanent and changed the ranks for them. 

As many people that are bitching here about it being changed to Made+ will bitch if it is changed to Made+. They did before and they will again. 

This exactly. While I agree, hand ranks should be reserved for made+(same with CL spots), there are the same amount of people who disagree. Difference being, those who disagree tend to contribute the most to our community and I don’t blame Izzy for siding with them, I would do the same regardless of personal opinions. 

 I agree with this suggestion. 

Chong, please define "contribute" in the context in which you used it. Why should a select few control game play for all?

Just make the Active list alphabetical and have it as an option to hide character age. Rank is already changed to reflect hand position. If nobody sees they're "fresh off the boat" then nobody will know! 

I honestly don't mind the change either way. Giving someone a rank just because they are old enough to be Made would just give them a shiny title temporarily until who they really want is of age. Kinda stupid really. 

In a role play sense, someone fresh could be easily explained. "Your father spoke highly of you, I trust you will serve me as well and as faithfully as he did." Boom, continuity and a reason someone fresh off the boat would be trusted.....

A shiney, new title that they could learn from which might be useful to the family during a war by chance?

Everyone talks about keeping it in character and to the era. Your family would be a laughingstock if a leader took some noob fresh off the boat and made them a hand. A hand position should be earned, not an entitlement.

I don't know where all this talk of "fresh off the boat" comes from. From a role-playing perspective, that's a very generic and bland way to come into this life of ours. Some of the fresh faces can be children from the deceased, raised and brought up around the very mafia they're now officially joining. Others could be widows who knew the life but were more "behind the scenes" than their deceased partner. That's all my very limited brain can think of right now, but the more creative of us could come up with far better backstories than that.

The simple truth is, you have no idea what that fresh character's backstory is or how it ties into this world of ours. They could be more important than the hand they replaced, even if only a day old. It all comes down to how the player wants to portray that character.

TL;DR: Just because a character is new, does not necessarily mean that character is inexperienced (from a role-playing perspective).

You understand what I am saying, it just doesn't conform to your beliefs.

There are people here never given a chance who would make great leaders and even when they survive a war they are looked over. I've seen people who survived that know more than both the RH and LH combined yet lazy cousins etc are made hands as thugs/gangster. That's not pointing at anyone in general, it's a blanket statement and those it applies to know who they are.

Trust me, fresh faces do get opportunity. I've seen it plenty of times in my day, and I've even been graced with one of those opportunities myself. Just because you don't witness it personally, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Leaders have a bunch of factors that tie into who they want to auth or have as hand. Activity, attitude, level of commitment, loyalty, gun, rank, bodyguards, etc etc. It all factors in.

Everyone starts somewhere. Keep in mind, that all of those "lazy cousins" you mention were once nobodies too. They needed someone to give them that first chance too, just like you and I. It is scarce, I'm not denying that, but it's out there and it does happen. You just need a little luck.

In regards to one person knowing more than the RH/LH combined - Did you ever consider the RH or LH might be new to the role and is learning how to go about it? Seems pretty hypocritical to complain about that when you're advocating for first timers.

Dude, I don't know you to trust you. I know better as well. Keep making lame excuses. It's fun to read.

Really just going to insult my points? Not even going to make any counter points or arguments? I guess I'll just take the victory with my "lame excuses" then. Heh.

Have a good one, buddy.

Are the coffee shops burning to the ground? Circle jerk lives on

This is a +1 but there are way too many loopholes to get around if it should take place. It's called circle jerk.

Isabella how would you suggest we avoid the loopholes? Would you like to see people forced to make those they do not know or trust their hands? How would you feel if you were the person being forced to choose someone unknown to you as a hand? 

You talk about circle jerks (Seems to be your thing.) but do not contribute a solution to a problem you feel is important to solve. How would YOU solve this issue without forcing people to make decisions that may not be good ones?

A long, long time ago a leader had no hands due to war and chose a person he didn't really know to be his hand based on rank. That hand went on to HQ wack the majority of his crew before the situation could be contained. How would you avoid this by forcing leaders to choose hands based on rank rather than trust and respect? 

If you are basing your "circle jerk" mentality on personal experience because you can't earn the trust and respect of someone and become a hand yourself maybe you should look in the mirror and your past actions. The same goes for anyone else that doesn't get a chance. Those that are hands or leaders regularly have proven themselves worthy and capable somehow... They started out as nobodies as well. Some food for thought. It's not always what you know, it's who you know and what they think of you outside of the game.  

Also, Isabella, before you go off about circle jerks and other negative comments step back, breathe, an remember... it's just a game and we're here to have fun and to have a nice day.

Would you like to see people forced to make those they do not know or trust their hands?

Why would a leader not know or trust those they promoted to made? 

How would you feel if you were the person being forced to choose someone unknown to you as a hand? 

I have not, nor will I experience that feeling. Getting caught up on the "circle jerk" is not my style. 

You talk about circle jerks (Seems to be your thing.) but do not contribute a solution to a problem you feel is important to solve. How would YOU solve this issue without forcing people to make decisions that may not be good ones?

Circle jerks is your thing. I just called it for what it is. I am supporting a problem that many over the last few years have spoke up about. The resolution of this problem is not in my hands. There would be no need to force if leaders paid attention to their crew. 

A long, long time ago a leader had no hands due to war and chose a person he didn't really know to be his hand based on rank. That hand went on to HQ wack the majority of his crew before the situation could be contained. How would you avoid this by forcing leaders to choose hands based on rank rather than trust and respect? 

So what you are saying is circle jerks are afraid of risks.  Leaders do not pay attention to their crew?

If you are basing your "circle jerk" mentality on personal experience because you can't earn the trust and respect of someone and become a hand yourself maybe you should look in the mirror and your past actions.

I assure you this is not the case. And I will leave it at that.

The same goes for anyone else that doesn't get a chance. Those that are hands or leaders regularly have proven themselves worthy and capable somehow... They started out as nobodies as well. Some food for thought. It's not always what you know, it's who you know and what they think of you outside of the game.  

This is a crock of shit. And to call somebody a nobody is part of the problem. Not everyone drinks coffee. Many prefer to work instead of sitting around chatting. Those coffee shops have a tendency of telling the nobodies how to operate. I can tell you for a fact I personally do not need to know anyone outside a game to succeed. When one lives and breathes family above all, on natural adrenaline, there is nothing more rewarding.

Also, Isabella, before you go off about circle jerks and other negative comments step back, breathe, an remember... it's just a game and we're here to have fun and to have a nice day. 

Did circle of jerks hit a nerve? 

It's called a debate Dean. It appears more agree with you thus far but as I stated if it was implemented there are those loopholes which take it back to square one...

I personally experienced being promoted to hand on my second real character. So, from my experience, I think crewleaders should be allowed to choose anyone as a hand. If they want to put someone young but also someone they trust, they should be able to do so. Crewleaders promote the same people, and crewleaders also promote new people. If someone who has invested years in the game has an advantage, so be it. I, however, think that, at least some crewleaders take the risk of trusting new blood.

I think a solution for people's issue in promotion is openness and clarity. If crewleaders are open to authing new blood or promoting new blood to hands, I think they should clarify how people can aim for it (e.g. pro'ing multiple times, being active in the chat or forums, having a gun, dedicating your kin to the family, etc.) There are only so many people who can be bold or italic though. So, I would expect the requirements are steep, especially if they don't know the person or haven't worked with them yet.