Those "innocent" were I never at and killed so cant participate in this dicsussion that can go on forever anyway, btw so went many after bloodline and made sure to kill those that just came in and supported the enemy again so I dont know who those could be innocent really.

Still feel sorre for all dead after this sad war that had to be done to make sure the whole MR.world could get to a better situation after all things happened.

Truly honor all fallen!

We will never know how many innocent people died in that war!  I was in Seattle when it went down I was in a crew my leader got killed went to another crew he got killed and left a lot of people without homes I decided to not go back there I went else where took a few days for me to pick a place since not many where opening their doors that was left up at the time. But I for one was no danger to anyone to me I think war is pretty stupid always a power struggle to see who can get to who and kill, why would I want to shoot a friend or family member just to get some where? I maybe impatient but I am no killer.  

I think sitting here keeping up the drama of it all is worthless time to move on and let it go. Time to start rebuilding and getting new crews put up to house more people, time to build new friendships and trust.. We can't do that if we try to beat each other up...  

RedHot aka Majesty... 

If this is even a conversation anymore, but is anyone really innocent in this game? I mean you either are completely new, meaning you won't become part of Blur's rogue attempt and then there are old players who came in to just become pros for him. If they really wanted to become players, then they would of joined a family. If you come in just to help a rogue, I don't care what rank you are, you have to die. It's called war for a reason. 

LOL, apparently that's what some people think. I don't know how but to each there own

Still does not make what I said wrong. Shit's war stop complaining about it. You choose your side and if you die on that side, that's what happens. Even if you just started a new character, deciding on one side there is your choice. So deal with your decisions. 

When you base your argument off of a lie you invalidate everything youre trying to prove because youre either A uninformed making your opinion well uninformed or B youre lying making the entire argument a lie. 

Of course werent Blur a real Rogue but in the end it looked likee it and Blur did well haunted by all and getting help from many (innocents)

No wonder there was a war for sure when so many in so many cities died be Blur and some more hands, and all of those had (innocents) that helped them.

Peace out and hail to all fallen!

Kenny went to the local library and did some research. He wrote lots of flyers with the help of his friends and gave them to some poor boys of the neighborhood to deliver to everyone at the gathering. One by one the young lads fearfully handed a small flyer to every mobster in the place containing the following words:

A gangster is a criminal who is a member of a gang. Some gangs are considered to be part of organized crime.

In ordinary language, a crime is an unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority.

-

Innocent means a lack of guilt with respect to any kind of crime, sin, or wrongdoing.

In criminal law, guilt is the state of being responsible for the commission of an offense or crime.

We are all guilty in the moment we step in these shores.

Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… Makes no difference.

I'm not someone who fully agrees with the mobster who brought this topic up and I respectfully heard people supporting both sides and find them to have some compelling arguments. They have opinions and deserve to be heard; they should be encouraged to debate about this topic! The mob in general should discuss controversial topics as long as it's done in a respectful way towards the highly ranked mafiosi and leaders. In that way the leaders can explain their actions so the troubled minds of young mafiosi can clear up and possibly rally up for said leaders and fight for their cause, but the leaders can also improve themselves if they find that their actions had a negative effect on their public image.

I see a few people dismissively saying that innocents aren't really innocents and mocking the discussion (forgive me if I'm wrong here, it just seems to me that way). Of course some of those said innocents helped in a war and therefore stopped being innocent, perhaps also a few others could have done so if they were given the chance. But is that really a reason to generalize and leap to the decision that there are no innocents and indirectly support indiscriminate violence against them, as if they are "fair game", when the gods have been penalizing violence against them since our very world came to existence? I think not.

This discussion has been going on for a couple of days now. I was thinking about making a statement earlier, but between the sleepless nights the blur affair caused, rebuilding Philly and then setting up my HQ. There just wasn't enough time. Now that things have settled down a little bit. I feel like I must say something here as I was a part of the endgame affair. 

First things first, I want to make this crystal clear. That I dont condone shooting of young mafiosos coming off the boats to this world of ours. Every man shot at that rate, is a possible future lost...or scum. Only Gods know best. And with that statement I delve deeper. I know there is a segmentation of society that is appalled at the fact that certain unhoused Gangsters, or even -1 gangsters were shot on war night. I understand your conundrum. I also want to add there is a reason why there is something called "R" and "-1" in this thing of ours as a way by Town Hall to ensure the survival of such young mobsters. Believe me when I say this, no marksmen in the history of this La Cosa Nostra enjoyed adding or nay should I say deducting those notches from their weapons. Its ONLY ever done under excruciating circumstances. 

What are these excruciating circumstances? How about the death of good men like RHMs'/LHM's or CL's even. Guys that have put in a lot of work to make it far in this life of ours. As long as Blur was getting her pro shots from within her crew or her axis of crews...we didnt shoot anyone that was marked "R" or "-1". The circumstances changed when new faces coming of the boat were fulfilling a destiny their predecessors had started. One other thing I want to highlight here. The expectation from every new face that enters in to this thing of ours, is that they look forward to a new life. And we forget or forgive the sins of their fathers, if there were such. Its a clean sheet of sorts. As long as the community adheres to this unwritten law, everyone follows. Order stays constant and you rarely see havoc.

Im actually one of those kinda leaders that will punish my own for crossing this line. However, when these new faces start to pro Blur and the tradeoff is we start watching our leaders fall. Any unwritten rule goes out the window, just like when that first -1 or R or unsponsored pulled the trigger to pro Blur. I must also add here, a lot of these guys that were proing Blur, cared only to watch our world burn. Some of them had no alliances with Blur, they were just enjoying the turmoil...to the extent that. Blurs axis shot down Don Water...and later an unsponsored member of hers prod Blur. Does any of that make logical sense? No it doesn't. And when the proers made the choice to break that line of this 'unwritten' code, any expectation for us to follow it went out the door as well. 

We made a decision that our leaders, hands and members were more important than a faceless unsponsored, -1 or a R. As they say, every action  has a equal and opposite reaction. These new faces faced that. And mind you they were given ample time to get on crews, but they choose against that. They had made their decision, we had made ours. And thats the end of it. 

Slow claps for Aladdin.

Perhaps the young faces were just so disappointed in the leaders with HQs that they wanted to see who else would be building a HQ? To say they had ample time not really fair. I thought picking a family was an important decision...one to make after careful consideration? Well, according to you, those young lads needed to rush into the nearest HQ to save their own lives.

It's quite hard to begrudge the leaders for what they did.  When there's war, there is going to be death.  Some people have put in a lot of time on these shores and showed loyalty to their leaders.  They deserve protection at all costs.

Those that were around and unsponsored should have found a home quicker, or not shown their faces in the streets.  I'll bet they'd still be alive.  

Added to that - I doubt said gangsters had put in much time or effort to their lives here.  Their kin can easily pick up where they met their end.

Chootum This...

It's quite hard to begrudge the leaders for what they did.  When there's war, there is going to be death.  Some people have put in a lot of time on these shores and showed loyalty to their leaders.  They deserve protection at all costs.

 

Those that were around and unsponsored should have found a home quicker, or not shown their faces in the streets.  I'll bet they'd still be alive.  

 

Added to that - I doubt said gangsters had put in much time or effort to their lives here.  Their kin can easily pick up where they met their end.

And yes your right, finding a family is a decision that should be thoroughly picked out. But just like we had to consider the circumstances, so should have they. Some even got messages to either go offline or get on a crew (and xfer later). So believe me when I say this, we were willing to show leniency as long as they followed certain guidelines. If they they didnt, they faced the consequences of their decisions.  

Rudy had been standing on the sideline for a bit, being pretty pleased that there was a decent amount of discussion on the topic.
..As well as off the topic..
He stepped forward once more, to reply on some of the things that had been said. There seemed to be a couple of intertwined discussions.. Firstly on definitions of innocence. Being confident that he knew what the definition was, he looked at Tutte and Redhot

Just like JohnnyLong indicated, it's very clear. I am pretty sure the editor that does the colouring in the obits, is very black-and-white in how he uses colouring. He uses the blue colour only for those that are unaffiliated and have neither been training their guns, nor have killed anyone. Doing one of those that would make you ocent.

Rudy frowned, wondering if ocent was in fact the opposite of innocent.

I did not start this discussion to keep up drama, Redhot. I started it, like Fashion said, to discuss about an aspect of this world we live in. And from the reactions and emotions, it's quite clear that etics are pretty important in our community!

Shifting his look to KennyRusso, he continues,
Kenny.. You can always find several definitions that may even be partly contradictive everywhere. The conclusion you make is not a definition. The definition is given in the Obits. By the editor of the Obits-section.

Rudy scraped his throat to continue
The second point would seen that what I raised the subject for.

He smiled as he turns towards Frankie_Vizzini.

The point you named of that the new people should join a family is exactly the point of the discussion. Those that had just entered this world had no possibility to join anywhere, there were very little jobs to do, there were even less people that reached out. From the copy of the note that was published, it showed that there was call to find those unaffiliated, and you know as well as I do, that it was not to contact them..
Oh.. And Hurley is right. Blur was not a rogue, that's a fact. Just like it's a fact what defines an innocent.

I don't see your point in asking to stop complaining. There is a difference between a discussion and complaining, right? We are discussing a specific situation here. A situation that happened before and one that will probably be an option in future situations as well. Maybe we could learn from mistakes and avoid actions that some people apparently see as something that is unethical. Maybe in the future a regime could think twice about taking the same steps. But then again, maybe what happened is fine like it happened.

Rudy looked towards Aladdin next
I applaud that you speak up like this, and personally, I can live with your explanation of excruciating circumstances, earlier StripheVenzetti already described it as chaos. Despite my father dieing as an innocent man, I have massive respect for you speaking up, taking responsibilty and explaining in detail what the situation was. That's true leadership there! Also, congratulations on setting up, Aladdin, I truely hope your reign will be a long-lasting success.  

Facing the whole crowd again, he continued

The last point would be what could be changed for the better

Chootum mentioned that there was no chance to find a crew to join, headquarters were not busy with recruitment. I underline that, there were no options. And that's where I feel the reigning power could have done more. Surely, they could have created space and taken those in that were crewless, protecting them and making sure they could not help the last fighting member of Seattle anymore, on the condition that after the situation was settled, they would be given their time to make up their minds on where they would want to go. It would have given said innocents a chance to survive and actually they could have, at the same time, reduced Blur's chances to be helped. Maybe Blur was able to survive for so long, was able to get that amount of protection from people that had just arrived, because she in fact did communicate with those that came fresh of the boat?

Rudy noticed some frowns and then quickly added

I know she did not reach out to my father, I am just making a suggestion of what may have happened..

I meant the discussion in general has become a bit of Drama.. Everyone is entitled to their view on things I understand that. But everyone is dead that is dead lets move on and rebuild.. 

Time to take a nap I am tired..  You all have a great day..