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| Stuck Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Started by: Zephyr on Mar 09, '08 08:03 |
| They would probably have to be in character too. | |
| Reply by: Numbers4Glory at Mar 09, '08 14:19 | |
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But how do you figure out where to go from here without looking at what might be wrong? And no, of course you don't HAVE to be a hitter to be a high ranker, however I would be rather suspicious if in this world of ours someone had not at least tried to fire their gun - I would be asking them why they didn't feel they should be at least attempting to put themselves in a position to help defend their family and would be checking their education re wacking long before that promo came along - as I said earlier, an earner was killed today for suspicion of pro wacking who didn't even know what the term meant so apparently more education is needed by all of us concerning that. Would any of you like to be a CL and go to war just to find that most of your high ranks, tho maybe not on the hit squad have never even fired their gun? I doubt it. |
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| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 14:28 | |
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If you went to war without knowing how many guns you had you'd deserve everything you got. And just because this guys son claims his father wasn't aware of any wrong doing doesn't mean that that wrong doing didn't take place. I could claim i'm not j0ngott1, but that doesn't make it true. In all fairness tho that one kill could have been erroneous, but when a rogue is threatening to kill everything you've worked for can you really afford to take the chance? |
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| Reply by: j0ngott1 at Mar 09, '08 14:33 | |
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And if you were my Boss and approached me with those concerns, I would tell you that YOU were the one who needed the education. I know people who have ranked to Don without ever firing a shot. As has been said, there is much more to a mobster's life than shooting. Especially in the case of someone who intends on being a prowacker, they don't want to train their gun. Muggers are also useful, and they use their time training that skill instead of shooting. Getting off topic here, but this is something you need to learn and everyone needs to understand - that being a hitman is not, and should not, be the focus of everyone in the family. |
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| Reply by: FlyingPig at Mar 09, '08 14:34 | |
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I wouldn't go to war on any such assumption. The only time I'd go to war is if I knew I could win or I had no other option. I would not rely on everyone of my high rankers being able to kill. I would rely on my hitsquad regardless of the ranks. Now, finding where we are going wrong. We are not going wrong anywhere as far as I can see. It's just certain members of this community do not like those in power and want them dead. Is that so different from any other time in this world? As far as I can see it is not the leader going wrong but their members. As a Made Man you owe your leader loyalty to death. You are one of his chosen men and someone he trusts with his life. If you go rogue from there you are scum and your bloodline should forever be tarnished. That would soon stop people buying out from their families. |
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| Reply by: bighead at Mar 09, '08 14:35 | |
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| I totally agree that being a hitman should not be the focus, but being in a position to help should be I would think. And, yes, perhaps this guy was lying jongotti but I don't think so as I had had to explain things to him before re wacking - besides, again the issue arises of where was the proof - he could have simply been told to fly home or barring being able to fly then go to sleep. And, to go on with the subject of lying - do we really know for sure this capo rogue had only training ranges under their belt? Although I agree that pro wackers are good FP - one of that high a rank? | |
| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 14:39 | |
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What sort of level of proof would you require? When he WB's off him to death after pro'ing him following his successful shot on PrinceofCheese...? Failed wacks don't leave WS's. |
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| Reply by: Zephyr at Mar 09, '08 14:42 | |
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| Obviously there can be no proof unless like in the case of one rogue, the rogue posts his personals. But without proof unless he was the only one online who it could possibly be, how do you justify killing him, If he refuses to fly or go to sleep then fine - blast away. | |
| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 14:46 | |
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| If my life was in danger and there was even a 50% chance that someone was pro wacking the person who wants my blood he would die in an instant. I will not risk my death over something that I cannot prove 100%. | |
| Reply by: bighead at Mar 09, '08 14:52 | |
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Without unloading private crew related information into the streets regarding the exact details of what happened in this instance, a pro wacker can be fairly easily identified due to how this place is organised i.e. who is able to shoot at who. Not only that but lets face it, as I write this 51 mafioso are walking around. Considering that is split accross 6 cities, it's hardly a crowd you can get lost in. And the sad thing about this place man is that you can barely trust anyone. I've known notorious wacking family lines who've joined a family and pretended to know completely nothing about the game. I actually witnessed a member of a family take hours and hours out of their free time to teach a veteran how to petty and drug run effectively. People lie, and then they lie more to cover up the lie. |
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| Reply by: j0ngott1 at Mar 09, '08 14:52 | |
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| As Bighead stated once you are Made Man or above, to a crew leader you are obviously one of his or her chosen members. Regardless of how many kills or Shooting ranges he or she has attended you should never be expecting members of that rank to buy out and start shooting. | |
| Reply by: Intervention at Mar 09, '08 15:05 | |
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Just an aside I want to address here - as I've already addressed the topic at hand. Who the fuck cares about proof? Our thing is not one of equality or fairness, why can't people get this through their heads? Let's put ourselves in say, PrinceofCheese's shoes. He has spent much of his life dedicated to La Cosa Nostra, and has been rewarded with the rank of Don. Were you in his position, and all your hard work and your own mortality were at stake; would you shoot an earner (someone who's done comparatively less work than yourself) even if there was only say, at 10% chance it would increase your own chances of survival? I would, and here's why. As I've said recently, this is about power, when your own life is at risk, you do everything in your power to consolidate the power that you possess. Very simple, yes? Very fair? Hell no, but again, where has this concept of fair come from? It's completely ridiculous. |
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| Reply by: Sprozza at Mar 09, '08 15:10 | |
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| Again, I agree with you this is a possibility - but that again reinforces the idea of "copied" coffee shop conversations etc., how true does anyone know they are. After all, this is the mafioso - isn't lying part of life? | |
| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 15:15 | |
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At the end of the day history will judge your actions and whether you did the right thing or not. Therefore it really is up to you and your morals as to which of your options you want to do. (OOC this is a question that should probably be debatted in both the Streets and OOC. The implications of actions has an effect on both) |
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| Reply by: El_Nino at Mar 09, '08 15:18 | |
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This will come across harsh, because no one likes to be told it's their own fault, and that they are the ones to blame. They? Really, let's see if you can elaborate after the end of this little note I'm adding to your poster as I'm not so sure the finger is quite pointed in the right direction here. Rogue come from your crew? That's your fault. 1) *YOU* blindly promoted them to the high ranks without proper research. 2) *YOU* promoted them without people vouching for them. 3) *YOU* didn't keep tabs on their guns. 4) *YOU* didn't HQ wack them, or bitchslap their rank when they broke your wack rules. 1) I never blindly promote. I would encourage each and every one of my made men to come out and confirm this. I either know them personally through much interaction or they have forcibly proved their contribution through crew work. The other problem here is that it's in my interest to promote them. With an infrastructure whereby mafioso can anonymously train their guns at the range then without shooting a single bum can kill capo leaders, the gods are causing leader paranoia. A paranoid leader is not a good leader and these types of leaders tend to think self preservation before criminal societal development. Nonetheless 99% of the time I avoid this. If you use your omniscience to check my historical leadership you will find the statistics support this. 2) I promote as I see appropriate. Effectively I vouch for them. If they go rogue I inevitably have to deal with the circumstances and backlash. But you know what, ok, fuck it, what I'll do is every single wise guy will require 5 references and if that person goes on to break a rule which I subjectively decide is serious enough. They all die. Future persecution is optional based on the offence. Let's teach all those fuckers a lesson they'll never forget until they never break a rule ever again. Let's create a stagnant world where once the first made men are up they all become godfathers as they have nothing to fear from unauthorised killing and all they have to do is create a community of leaders willing to support each other no matter what. 3) I keep tabs on all my guns. My RH Zephyr meticulously catches up with shooters in the family. Those who don't sign in as required are approached and if they still resist and persist in their selfish ways we kill them. However this is a massive comment on your godly behalf as how would you like to me track trips to the training range? I could get out some financial modelling tools, track petties*taxes*donations and then get forced reports on gambling and other outlays and then ask people what the hell they dare do with the rest of their money. Should go down well with the whingers who feel they are "cash cows". 4) Didn't bitchslap? I hope my hitters come on here as they are all carefully policed. I do what I can to keep their lives fulfilled but no one is given a free pass round the cheese HQ. Look at my rankers in the obits, the majority of them are punishments, irrespective of rank, they break rules they die. If you consider yourself a family, then you won't have a problem with number one above in the first place. You already know their name, stories about their pet, what they do for a living. You know who they are. Surely you guys are a family and not just some kid who has a basement full of underage asians working for 50 cents an hour mining mafia gold for you. This over personalisation is a joke. I know most of my members pretty well but I have a structure to engage appropriately. Some of my family like to talk, to tell me about themselves and some don't. Guess what some of them even use it against me as a way to build comaradery before they try to fuck us over. Why do I need to know their pet? We are here to make profit. If I make profit, they make profit. If they make profit for me they move up the hierarchy. If they more up the hierarchy we are all richly rewarded and we go for drinks, then they tell me about their cats, dogs, wives and mistresses. I don't run a speakeasy, I run a profitable business. For number two above, add in some accountability. If someone wants to be a mademan, he will have no problem getting his friends to vouch for him. When they fuckup, in ANY capacity, you kill everyone who vouched for them. This process works. You will find that people who fuckup a lot will not find people to vouch for them. You will find that people who have shady histories will not have people vouch for them. As above, no problem, no problem at all. I hear tears and whines about driving mafioso away through other actions but let's try this. It can only solidify my position afterall until you get the guys who all vouched for each other and all run off as rogues as a team. Great, fun times. Tonight I will talk to the leadership and we will put this into motion. For number three and four above, it's not hard to see who has worked their guns. What kind of reward system are you offering for people reporting witnesses to you? None? Oh.. thats possibly why you only get a small percent of them. If one of your rules is that everyone must report their wacklists to you, and they lie about it or get caught... why are they alive? If anyone ever breaks any clearly stated rule, no matter how small... they NEED to be punished... After someone breaks a rule, they wait for punishment to determine one thing.... can they do it again? "You saw igFingyfl take a trip to the range!" I get those all the time, oh, hold on, no I don't. But apparently maxing ranges is enough to take out a couple of leaders before breakfast. How I get witness statements is not up for debate here, I'll get my intelligence officer to give you a full briefing if you like, he has a significant database created by my willing family. In the end, take responsibilities as leaders and actually know your family, they are not sheep, they are not sweatshop filled with 8 year olds. They are supposed to be your family. They are your children. Any kind of Mother or Father in real life who doesn't know shit about their family would find themselves in a courtroom hearing a judge say UNFIT! - TAKE THE KIDS AWAY. I'm running a business not a creche. I manage my family as I see fit, this changes on an invidual basis. Based on my recruitment policies I don't need to coddle 99% of them and if they break rules I bet almost every single time it is calculated and intentional as they are smart, often experienced mafioso. If I'm unfit then clearly this world rewards unfit people outrageously. Right so that's those dealt with, other perinent points. 1 ~ It's hard to know why a god has come down to join this criminal discussion. Surely in your many forms and immense powers you could have spoken as one of us and not unduly biased the discussion. Already I see a wheelbarrow full of sycophants lining up their "Go Squishy" banners. 2 ~ I make common libations to the gods. I respect their powers and energies in maintaining us. I guess and correct me if I'm wrong if you counted on your godlike fingers the number of criminals who make larger libations than me it would look something like this. ... ... ... So why is it that I am morally persecuted in the streets by a leading god for something that I am not even guilty of? Why is it that down dark backalleys leaders are encouraged to make concessions by the gods to "test" when really neither the demographics nor structure is there to do so? Why is that my libations go unnoticed as these biased demands keep coming? I try to bring the streets back to life - An unequivocal success if I say so myself Try to bring respect back into our world - There is no longer whoring, much more consistent rule judgement, regular familial communications to vote throughout family as requested by the gods and implement a public censorship agreement. Look down the topwebgames alleyway, tell me why those numbers have risen exponentially. 3 ~ My auths are dying because of godlike intervention in the training of guns. How do you expect me to instill familial values in them when they can only wonder if some anonymous incog is rolling through the local ranges waiting but weeks to kill them for all their hard work. Personally my bloodline has played this role to a tee many times of late. Moneystuler76 was responsible for the destruction of much of the Librizzi family at one time yet from the inside for all intensive purposes he was the model criminal and gave everything for his family and was only cut down by a freakish statistical anonmaly. That was one life and since then he has happily worked with those he betrayed and hopes and wishes they once again move to the forefront of society. Fastar0x was completely incog all the way to his auth. He pretended to be an old leader and achieved auth with the whole community thinking he was someone else. The moral of the story here is: smart people can get away with it and there is nothing leaders can do. The flipside is that stupid people will promise the world to leaders, try to deliver it then "get drunk", "suffer a bereavement", "did the wrong thing", "was on drugs", a cacophony of bullshit really. Leader: "What's your cats name" Member: "Giles, he's gorgeous" (doesn't have a cat) Leader: "That's lovely, let's have a drink and get to know each other" **Continues to have a number of gleeful conversations over many weeks as they get to know each other** Leader: "How's the gun?" Member: "Haven't shot a thing, it's not my style" (Has maxed ranges and got a few cheeky kills in on the sly) This happens regularly, it's actually quite exciting really, "roleplaying". Not quite the same as wearing a nurses uniform in bed but exilerating all the same and brings a fresh twist to petty, rank, petty rank, petty rank, make street speech, petty, rank, speeech. I just don't get it Squishy. So much clear progress has been made and I personally am giving a lot to both you and this community and you come out here and slap me in the face in public. This is not meant to be a tirade against you but I simply can't accept this sort of unjustified criticism after everything I give day on day on day. |
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| Reply by: PrinceofCheese at Mar 09, '08 15:19 | |
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Even if the current leaders asked for references before handing out a Made button whats to say the people that gave a referral are alive after there "friend" was a rogue. How do you punish the dead, take it out on there next character? If you ca find them? I know for a fact my crew leaders have been very careful before giving a made promotion and, I myself have been used as a reference for just that.. Good people turn bad. Rogues will happen regardless, you can take all the precautions and steps you want but it will never stop. Most rogues don't plan going rogue from the time they enter this world of ours. They get pissed off or complacent for whatever reason. They make a decision and buy out. |
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| Reply by: Kerney at Mar 09, '08 16:04 | |
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Rogue come from your crew? That's your fault. I won't quote the rest, as it's there to see for all interested. That being said though...that is the in the Top 5 Most Ridiculous Things Ever Said In the Streets! Crewleader! It's your fault you're not watching the training of your members gun! How dare you not know our latest rogue had a handful of kills. I mean, you should know that a handful of kills will take down a Protected leader with rank. Give me a break! Secondly, your points contradict themselves. It's the leaders fault that they promote those that work hard, but if they are working hard, they need to somehow be "monitor" their members and question their hardworking members motives to the point that they don't promote them??? I mean, short of Crewmember A coming right and saying: "Dear Leader, I plan on going rogue at some point. kThx", how the hell is a leader to really know??? Take Limoncello's crew, of which I have a lot of knowledge for obvious reasons...our rogue Navy came from her crew. Sure, others warned her that Navy might not be trustworthy, but (and here's the big but), he'd done nothing to prove that statement true. In fact, he was one of the biggest donators in the family, very active, and very helpful. How was she to know he'd go rogue? Now, if you say she should have known based upon what the others had told her, then shame on you! Saying that, believing that, and supporting that will and has in some ways KILLED your world. When bloodlines are constantly labeled and held back because of who they WERE, then your world only perpetuates an endless cycles of coffeeshop pals and old, ancient cliques from the old (and much more balanced) world. To conclude, let's just be open here. We're not blind. We see that the world has changed. I, for one, have always striven from balance and opportunity in this world, and I'll hope that it comes someday. However, if leaders are going to get the finger pointed at them and blamed for rogues, then Zephyr was dead on regarding what the solution needs to be. |
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| Reply by: Adebayor at Mar 09, '08 16:12 | |
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PrinceOfCheese, what brought this on was the suggestion of returning the game to something it was for a short while in the past, a place where 95% of the game is forced to stay at a low capped rank, while the remaining 5% oppressors stay at the top and make sure no one can be promoted who isn't in their inner circle of CP. It has happened before, and I can certainly see it happening again in the future. This Hitlerism should never really be allowed to happen again. So when I see a RHM tossing out that this very same idea - sure, I will react... and strongly. It would be uncaring if I didn't. You ask why I didnt make a new name to say what I had to say? Errm... wouldnt you rather me post as me so I can be held accountable for my words as opposed to an anonymous person? If you prefer, I can make a new character every time I go to state opinions in the forums the once every few weeks I actually do, and there wont be any accountability, it will be some anonymous civ account that as soon as the post is done, is abandoned.... there is no accountability in that. So I come to you with my name, so you know who I am, rather than cower behind anonymity. |
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| Reply by: Squishy at Mar 09, '08 16:21 | |
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Just a quick reminder... you CP do all realize that just a few months ago *YOU* guys were the rogues? The ones hell bent on destruction of the crewleaders in power? Just making sure you guys remember. |
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| Reply by: Squishy at Mar 09, '08 16:26 | |
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I wouldn't mind if you were anonymous, I would treat you the same as any other character. I know who Adebayor's bloodline was but I think his current incarnation is fucking great. As a god in this world you hold much greater sway than anyone else. I won't hold you accountable for anything, at the end of the day your actions rule all. I won't PM you down IRC avenue for your opinions and I won't abuse you via mail. I just respond as I see fit here. That's the way it should be. Zephyr threw an idea out as a discussion point to get a debate going. I could've sworn there wasn't enough of that around there days. If we were going to pull a "UN" on this society I certainly wouldn't discuss it in the streets. I would have thought that of all people you would know Zephyr well enough to understand his integrity and intelligence. To me it looks like you seized on a chance to make people look stupid for no real reason which is incredible harsh given the context we are now all existing in. |
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| Reply by: PrinceofCheese at Mar 09, '08 16:29 | |
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