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| Stuck Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Started by: Zephyr on Mar 09, '08 08:03 |
| Having never gone rogue without being asked to by my leader, no, I don't remember that. | |
| Reply by: Numbers4Glory at Mar 09, '08 16:29 | |
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Who the hell is "you CP". Of all the current leadership I am the only CP leader. Name all the rogues from a few months ago...my bloodline was never rogue. I was a legitimate leader many times. The bloodline of Fakeman was RH to Anita and a legitimate leader many times. Camazotz was RH to a librizzi Don. Rick_Deckward was not CP. Where the hell are all these rogues? This is getting really tiresome now as this is just clear an unjustified bias. |
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| Reply by: PrinceofCheese at Mar 09, '08 16:31 | |
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Unless Squishy is lumping me and Sprozza in with CP? Perhaps you would care to name exactly who you mean Squishy? |
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| Reply by: bighead at Mar 09, '08 16:35 | |
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Me? My bloodine set up shop as a 'rogue' just the once, and on the say so of then leader SoundWarnings. You leave me outta it! |
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| Reply by: Sprozza at Mar 09, '08 16:37 | |
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| I believe Rick Deckard (can't remember the spelling) was known in the coffeeshops as LauraCP - and N4G - going rogue is ok if your CL tells you to do it? Not sure where I stand on that idea. However, without disrespect intended POC, there is an obvious CP power thing going on when the only non CPs are captains - one of whom's bloodline was always against you but was authed in the city Altitude died in, which was logical, and when you do auth non CPs such as JOH and Orwell, you still claim ownership of that city and their actions. These kinds of things are what are confusing to a lot of people including myself. The going after of certain bloodlines is another one. I am not taking the side of you or one of the Gods here, just trying to state what the common people see and wonder about | |
| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 16:39 | |
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...a place where 95% of the game is forced to stay at a low capped rank, while the remaining 5% oppressors stay at the top and make sure no one can be promoted who isn't in their inner circle of CP. Not to beat a dead horse, but haven't we established that this statement isn't true. I mean, I can see people in nice suits that aren't in that inner circle of CP. Can anyone else? This Hitlerism should never really be allowed to happen again. Whilst, this statement is quite colorful, let's be honest...again. Look around. Can others not see how people have ranked, promoted, and rewarded for their hard work? And, with that being said, they've tried your alternative, and it hasn't worked. Do you have some solutions, rather than Utopian dreams, that can actually help solve this problem? No offense, Squishy, but it seems that this "Hitlerism" hasn't been a problem in the past when certain leaders were out there doing this very thing. I don't recall a time I ever saw anyone with a "bigger say" in this world degrading them or comparing them to bad parents. Why now? Why all of a sudden? Where was the outcry then? Again, people should look around. We've seen leaders given nice suits that have never been given a chance by those little coffeeshop cliques that are so popular. We've seen leaders given an opportunity even though their dad was the only person to have set foot on these shores, whereas others would've said he wasn't experienced. And, and! to top it all off...these weren't even members of that "tyrannical" group known as CP!!! Facts! And yet...this world is so horrible. GIVE ME A BREAK! (Forgive any speech impediments in this speech or any others...I noticed a few in my previous response) |
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| Reply by: Adebayor at Mar 09, '08 16:39 | |
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I don't see how we can debate with this? You are basically having us pick our fate. "Which way would you like to be damned?" is what i'm hearing when I re-read Zephyrs statement. I just don't think we could find a possible solution to this. There have always been Rogues and no matter what there will always be rogues. Even the inner-circle sometimes falls apart and crushing in on the rest. You could try all you'd like to stop it... but, I doubt it would do much good. Rogues don't care and will ALWAYS find a way. Even if you do enclose it, to only being the CP, or whatever you are calling this Reign right now. (I go by who the Don is.) We will all die one day. It is inevitable. I am more of an Anarchy man, but, obviously that is because I am only a mere Earner and I probaly won't see past Wise Guy anyways. You are all talking about a Dictatorship. But, I have a question, will all of the "untrusted" Made Men+ right now be killed off if this does go in to effect? |
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| Reply by: Tide at Mar 09, '08 16:45 | |
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Voulu, Limoncello and Cab_Tufting are now CP? No, they're not. This argument has been beaten to death. RickDeckard, incidentally, was known in the coffee shops for a long time as Laura_Hunt, s/he only became a CPer later on. Incidentally, I believe that yes, roguing on your Leader's request is acceptable, perhaps even admired. One willing to make the greatest sacrifice, e.g. death, for the betterment or survival of one's family is surely honourable. |
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| Reply by: Sprozza at Mar 09, '08 16:45 | |
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| Yet, Adebayor, your ancestors were just as outspoken and volatile towards the tyrannical group in power at the time, now that you are a part of the ruling group you see no problems with it? | |
| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 16:45 | |
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I see alot of debate out here. So much of which is stuctured on false information. Vodoo and Ralph_pryke, arguably the two least powerful leaders died last night. Immediately, CP comes out with a statement that is at best mildly threatening to the very fabric of our way of life and at worst overly paranoid. I can't help but chuckle at this. Has the CP learned nothing from history? Throughout the pages of time people have chafed under the rule of others. Especially under the absolute rule of others. Dissent is a guarantee in human existence. How often have we heard the old maxim that the more you try to strengthen your grip on power the faster it slips away. By all means demote everyone to earner, request 75 references and a urine test, you will only engender even more hatred. Tyranical systems always create their own worst enemies. Now, alot of measures have been bandied about here today. Tracking trips to the gun range, paying people for witness statements, more stringent measures to be made etc. None of these would have worked in the case of the late Bill_McNeal. Bill, was a model member of society (I'm sure Intervention will agree to this one). He was a very hard-working, ambitious mafioso. He took the initiative, starting up the crew bar, compiling the crew earnings, and even sponsoring a crew competition. He was an excellent earner and donator. There was no reason to ever suspect him of going rogue. This was due in large part to the fact that for the vast majority of his life he himself didn't se that happening either. It took a large confluence of events to convince him to grab that bold suit. Most of those events are OOC ( a looming week-long abscence, grades suffering because of the vast amount of time spent in this world). The catalyst for his actions was the auth of Vodoo. Bill_McNeal and his father before him (Inhibitor) had witnessed the rise of the CP and fought against it. They saw others fall and accepted this. They saw the CP attempt to enforce standards for street speaking, and Altitudes I m teh Tyrant! speech in which he threatened to kill any and all who spoke out against him. Now Bill saw all of this, and he also saw this Vodoo character spewing his vitriol in the streets. It appeared that Vodoo could say and do whatever he wanted. He was arrogant and loud, but he was also CP. Bill found this auth to be a bit hypocritical. He vowed at the time of Vodoo's auth to take his shot. He told ONE person: his prowacker (who unfortunately got killed after only 1 shot). As for Bill's gun, it was really quite remarkable. He did have one kill ebfore last night as Numbers pointed out. Last night he apparently got three more. Now so much of the previous conversation has dealt with the training range. Bill used it TWICE. To change the way the range works as some have championed would be foolish. It had no bearing here. All of the proposed changes would have failed. Bill was an enigma who did not fit any of the patterns which have been delineated here. Any further tightening of the CP fist will only serve to engender more hatred. Perhaps the answer can be found by looking within your own system for the changes that should be made. Rather than imposing your will further on others. |
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| Reply by: multivitamin at Mar 09, '08 16:45 | |
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My regard for Bill_McNeal was scant before, it's now non existant. No doubt you are Bill's son, given the dramatic insight here, so I am to take the motives for Vodoo's death as truth. This still doesn't explain why Bill took it upon himself to shoot Ralph_Pryke, a Captain who had shown extreme potential and a love for our thing. So I'll offer my own reasoning. Bill_Mcneal was an idiot, a complete fucking tool. Since when do OOC reasons justify the deaths of two leaders? What a disgrace. |
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| Reply by: Sprozza at Mar 09, '08 17:01 | |
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Sprozza, I have not claimed Limoncello is CP, however she was not authed, only made a captain after her CP leader died. And if you check your history books, LauraCP goes back in the coffeeshops as far as Rick's ancestor BlackMask tho she often uses various names. And again, Cab-Tufting though frequently seen without the CP after his initials nowadays from what I hear has been CP in the recent past. And on thinking it over, I believe my opinion would go with the consensus that if your leader orders you to do so, then so be it - you do it. But, noone has explained POC having power over 2 auths in a city not his - does that mean that Cab has power over future auths in another city? |
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| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 17:03 | |
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| Did an OOC incident not lead to your late father's demise Sprozza? I do not believe I ever heard the words "complete fucking tool" being applied to the late Altitude. | |
| Reply by: multivitamin at Mar 09, '08 17:03 | |
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| After I posted my last reply Sprozza, I saw yours - first of all OOC reasons has always been allowed into this world of ours - not that it should be but it has always been done. Secondly, I was under the impression this was supposed to be a debate, a discussion yet you are choosing to turn it into a name calling fest - that to me is disgraceful | |
| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 17:07 | |
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| Also the fact that it significantly blurs the line between a captain and a proper auth. JackOfHearts was, what appeared to be, a proper auth for Las Vegas. Was Jack just a captain in a different city? | |
| Reply by: Kellerman at Mar 09, '08 17:09 | |
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That's because Altitude's motives regarding the death of my father at least had something to do with this thing of ours. Your reasons are bullshit frankly. Imagine if every single person here started killing because of every discrepancy in their lives, it would be absolute anarchy, something which we strive to avoid because this is organised crime. I concede that Rick was a CP, but I am more troubled by the slightly more relevant matter of Cab. So he used to be a CP in the past, but now he's not. Ergo...he's still a CP?! That's how I construe the majority of mud hurled at him, and it's getting tiring to be frank. If we held every single affinity against everyone we'd be in a right mess. PrinceOfCheese felled the overall leader in Vegas, surely this grants him right of conquest? Even id you disagree with that, Prince claimed it regardless, did anyone dispute him? No. So is the city his? Sure. |
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| Reply by: Sprozza at Mar 09, '08 17:10 | |
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Yet, Adebayor, your ancestors were just as outspoken and volatile towards the tyrannical group in power at the time, now that you are a part of the ruling group you see no problems with it? First off, you will not find CP at the end of my name. Second off, I am not "ruling" in any way, shape, or form. I don't even hold a position within Limoncello's crew. Thirdly, sure, I'd rather there be another way around this. Perhaps my bloodline has been naive to have thought differently in the past, as now, I've seen those opportunities, that I've preached about more than a few times, actually handed out and squandered on self glory and other selfish, non-family oriented, ideals. My problem is, in all honesty, the fact that this is a problem now. Yes, my bloodline was persecuted in the past (Poor me...feel free to wire my accountant $100k to heal my broken past), and yet, where was this outcry? I can give anyone numerous examples of the "Hitleristic persecution" I've endured. But, lets face it...This is a world in which the pendulum does not swing both ways. It never has. So, why now, must we have our leaders being publicly faulted for the very same things others, have done in the past as well? Again, where was the outcry when "acceptable" leaders were running the show? "Hello kettle, I'd like to point out your color if that's alright by you." |
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| Reply by: Adebayor at Mar 09, '08 17:12 | |
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Disgraceful Voulu? So be it. I have never been one to pussyfoot around, and so anyone I see trying to justify Bill_McNeal's actions will get an earful from me. The death of such a bright light in our thing is not to be excused, neither should those who defend it be worthy of any respect whatsoever. Ask around, people will generally tell you that I'm a respectful person, but some are just undeserving of said respect, and even cordiality. |
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| Reply by: Sprozza at Mar 09, '08 17:12 | |
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Sprozza - he killed Vodoo, because, he was allowed to do whatever he wanted. He had no regard for the mafia rulebook and could spew anything he wanted aloud in the streets without any trouble. Mainly, because, he was a CP and PrinceOfCheese is aswell. Also, Cab_Tufting, even though he may not be a CP any longer. He still holds friendships with them. So, in my eyes, he is still one. Even if he does not brandish the title any longer. Zephyr is a CP and is AngelicalDeath. There are only two people who can be regarded as nonCP. That is Limoncello and Intervention. I am not trying to argue however - just don't like it when people don't read the whole thing... twice, before they post, like I do. :D |
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| Reply by: Tide at Mar 09, '08 17:14 | |
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I meant three people. Skepta should be added in that aswell. The other CrewLeaders, even though they are not CP, still are influenced greatly by them. I don't care who is ruling me. As long as this silly Dictatorship-thing does not go through. |
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| Reply by: Tide at Mar 09, '08 17:16 | |
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