I'm also a wank stain, as my block quote fuck up clearly qualifies me for that title.

I guess you could say, "I IG-88ed that one!"

ThomasHarrow, you sir are no Hedo Rick

I just fail to see how something like this can be earned in 14 days. I'm not sitting here denying that you've gotten your name around with your actions. I'm arguing the fact that it had a lot to do with your bloodline as well, when it should be about you and you alone (After all, a new character is a completely different person, which is why I see it as impossible to earn in 14 days). It all sounds like I'm discrediting you, and in arguing this point there's no way I can't be in some way or form. I'm not doing it or at least not trying to in a dick head fashion, there's just no other way.

That's a horrible example, because he was once in my position. He didn't get in the job and instantly become trusted and deemed a leader. He worked for months more than likely years to earn that title. Our lifespan is a little different though of course, there still has to be limits in my opinion

I've always been a firm believer that exceptions can be made for hands, MAINLY when a family is just starting out. You've also noticed my bloodline rotating through hands in a teaching fashion because there are no excuses for sticking with the same bloodline over and over, it's a cop out.
(I don't need to know their past, I get to know them. I had three first time accounts as hands, I practice what I preach.)

I think it's great that all the city heads were apart of this meeting to discuss the future of, "this thing of ours" I think you should of waited for Las Vegas to get it's own city head to make more decisions in the future. But, then agian it wouldn't matter at the time with random hits could take place and ruin something. At the time I was listening to the new rules of MafiaReturns. I couldn't agree more then having only 4 city heads. We don't want crews with 12 people going around full of these pathetic uses of "NPM's" Those robots were the worst thing ever that has come to this thing of ours. But, what happens if a crew signs a NPM to his or her crew. Will there be a fee because of it. Or, just the result of a bullet in the chamber?

The only thing I don't agree at this part of stage is the Los Angles thing. No more Los Angles? By affecting what the use of Los Angles be? Could you help me why you took the reason to discuss no city heads or crews into the once great city of Los Angles. In the time of Premeir that is.

"It is hard not to judge bloodlines by their past. No matter how hard you can try people will always think about your past actions. Whether good or bad, that is how you build a reputation."

Clarity paused for a moment, she was trying very hard not to name names.

"Unless you're a brand new person to our shores, people will always remember your bloodline as what it has done until you prove what you can do. Sometimes that proves to benefit some more than others. Yet, to say their new kin doesn't deserve the chance they have received I believe is a bit harsh. It isn't like we are all coming into this life as a new born baby. Our kin comes into this life already a young woman or man. So they have already been alive for quite a while, if we wish to really delve deep into this."

"You say exceptions for hands, but aren't hands supposed to be the leader if the boss has to step away for a bit? How can you make an exception for them, but not for the actual boss? Doesn't this go against what you are saying to begin with?"

"If the boss hasn't earned their passageway to leading yet, then neither does that Right Hand!"

Brushing her hair out of her eyes, Clarity then ruffled it up a bit. The wind was ruining her lovely look.

Will LV graduate to the GF council in time?

As LV is the unwanted relative from sound of it, shouldn't they make their own choices regarding NPM's?

Is lacking a GF in LA and LV not an open invite to rogues for no GF cities?

just a few things of the top of my head

I am extremely ecstatic about these changes. For a log time i have not like NPMs and the whole amount of crews issue but the Godfather Council has successfully fixed both of these issues.

I believe this marks a new era of mafia times and I will drink to its success.

~Muerta

The large, bear-like man tilts his head as he attempted to understand the long speech and trail of words that was presented. A slight stream of drool falls from his bottom lip until he blinks, finally able to understand the concept.

Da! Heavy is pleased with these changes. Little tiny robots who cannot think are bad. Real men, they very, very good!

Heavy also likes crew limits. Brings team closer together. Makes Heavy happy.

With that ranging on his limit of intellect speaking, he proceeds to remove a rather large sandvich from his jacket, happily munching away at it.

Suck it, Hurley.

Suck it long, and suck it hard.

Hmmmmm, I been sitting here quietly listening to everything going on, if Im honest, one eye open, the other one closed. There is nothing new about this Godfather Council. In fact, my great great great (well you get the point) grandpappy sat on the first one many many moons ago. And that was nothing short of a disaster. We ended up with a completely top-heavy society, where there was loads of Dons and Consigs etc and nobody could get authed. We had a belly full of rogues regularly because people were just simply fed up getting to a level of rank and then ending up just holding their dicks in their hand with nowhere else to go. In fact, you couldnt scratch your arse without permission from the Godfather Council. My fear now is that things will inevitably go the same way.

We have only recently got rid of one raging tyrant and his band of followers and now it looks like we have just substituted them for another band of the same.

How can you turn around in one hand and say that Godfathers have the right to do whatever they want in their own cities (which is only fair, by gaining that rank they gained the privilege to run their OWN city accordingly), and then on the other hand tell them what they can and cant do. If they are not capable of running their city without being told what to do, in my humble opinion, they shouldnt be there in the first place.

What worries me the most however about these recent changes is the fact that we have recently replaced one level of restriction with the Roman Empire at the helm with now another whole new level of restriction. Wouldnt it be better to just allow Godfathers to get on with their task of running their own cities AS THEY SEE FIT, instead of introducing these un-necessary restrictive 'guidelines' via a system that really didnt work in the past and is most unlikely to work now.

~Tarbh

While they have been alive for a while they haven't been in a family or this life for a while. They come in knowing a good amount but not a great amount, they have to earn titles and ranks like everyone else (in a ideal world). It's hard to see them becoming a CL in 14 days

I see being a CL COMPLETELY different as being a LH/RH, I mean it's not even in the same boat from my point of view. While I firmly believe if you have high rankers (that you chose especially) they should be given a shot before the kin of your former, you're not always given high rankers. Sometimes a hand is even essentially chosen for you.


(Let me be blatantly honest, this point is being brought up because I've heard a lot about "reality" with the mentioning of NPMS and what not. I believe this to be a far more serious problem than money making robots, ESPECIALLY from a "real' standpoint. Mob members would be more likely to employ robots if they could have than to deem someone a CL who's been part of their crime syndicate for only a month or two. You try and make it more "real" well start with the meat rather than the bread.)

I think some guideline of this should be written in the city rules.  I see this rule staying here for a while until a new set of leaders come into power.  And even so, it still may remain.  After a couple weeks this thread will wash away just like all the others, and the new ones that come here may not know about this rule or may not remember this rule.  Just like the worldwide 10 minute MIA rule, this rule should be reminded to everyone in the city rules. 

Protection Orders will last for 7 calendar days. 'Untagged' members are fair game. 'Tagged' members are to be given 7 calendar days to find a new family. Inactive associates are fair game. Inactive Made Men and above are to be given 7 calendar days to find a new family.

I don't speak on much rule changes or anything of that sort but I have to be honest, this seems like a good change to this thing of ours. I see progress from our current Godfathers. I can't wait to see what happens in the future.

Barbara nods dramatically at one of Tarbhs comments

We have only recently got rid of one raging tyrant and his band of followers and now it looks like we have just substituted them for another band of the same.

You couldn't be more right Tarbh. However what is classed as a Tyrant.. a Tyrant is when someone rules from the top. Controlling EVERYONE in the world and dictating what they can and can't do. That leads me to this question that I beg someone to answer with a very good one..

What did Roman and Premier do to dicate the following;

Reduce the amount of Auths in our world?
The answer... nothing.

Reduce the amount of money someone could make?
The answer... nothing.

Tell the GODFATHERS of OTHER cities they can't auth a new person because they're at an imaginary cap... or one of their HQ's has X amount of spaces left?
The answer... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

What did either of them do to dicate anything another city could/couldnt do?
The answer... nothing UNTIL the bans on all the rogues etc. Which is what lead to their downfall.

Not once did they make rules which will literally stop ANYONE from being able to go against those at the top. With these new rules in place.. no one will be able to revolt. Meaning our world will slowly die.. and in the OOC terms.. Our world will dissapear of the net due to lack of funds.

Now I will openly say right now.. I can say that my ancestor Mrs-Doubtfire wanted Roman and Premier gone for a very very long time. She joined Chicago to build.. and then due to ONE person alone in the revolters.. she was killed because it was believed she wouldn't of turned against them. That's complete bullshit. It's because that one person didn't like her.. or her friend. So.. for me to come and preach and stand on the side of Roman and Premier right now is even a shock to my own system.

There is a fine line between what tyranny is 'about to/just started' right now. And what was before. Before it was a power house of friendship across two cities that couldn't be removed without a complete revolution against them because of their power. Right now.. it's a bunch of 'united leaders' being lead by what I believe is one person who won't take no for an answer because he wants to shape the world into what he believes is a perfect world and has made it known...

Years after Years after Years continously. When I sleep at night the only thing I can imagine is the faces of the sons and daughters of the revolutioners thinking.. What the FUCK have you done mom/dad. You revolted against a bunch of people hoping for a better world...

Barbara laughs and smirks.

Well guess what. You were wrong. Very wrong. I apologise to anyone in advance if I've been disrespectful however I believe that our world is now built you can voice your opinion as long as people aren't named or disrespected and therefore I have done this.

Lola, having been listening for some time, clears her throat and stands up once again.

I'm sorry to trail this on any longer than is necessary - but I have another point to make.

The Godfathers of 'other cities' are not being forced into anything, as I imagined would have been quite clear from the birth of the Godfather Council. All changes that affect all cities would be agreed upon, in advance, by the heads of each city. So really, I'm not very clear on where tyranny comes into it at all. I mean, really? Tyranny? Are we not throwing terms around a little loosely with that one?

What I see here is effort; I see endeavour. Nobody ever said it was going to please everyone - in fact I'd say it was entirely expected that a large plethora of people would come forward to voice their misgivings. But here's the thing. Of all you who disagree with the changes, how many have even shown willing to give them the time of day before casting judgement or, in particular, comparing this regime to those of the past? And, as a sidenote, I also noticed that one or two of those complaining went on to take full advantage of one particular change.

So, in my opinion, how about we let the dust settle and see how these moves carry us forward in realistic terms before throwing aspersions around like poisoned confetti? If I were to disagree with anything - which I don't - personally, I'd be keeping my opinions tucked away until I had the benefit of time proving my point. Sometimes, just sometimes, a wiser man will choose to merely observe rather than put a coin into the mouthpiece and give it all he's got, when really, he hasn't got much.

"As of 14th November, no more NPMs will be employed by any outfit from any city. Those NPMs currently employed will be allowed to complete their contracts and then no subsequent robots will then find work within our country. Including IG-88."


What are MIA's? Robots right?

So are we not allowed to spawn MIA's as well?

Isn't that a form of laziness?

If you're going to rule out robots, rule them all out, Contracts and those damned robotic Durdens...

There is plenty here that has been misconstrued, exaggerated and otherwise misinterpreted. I will have a stab at allaying some fears and steering thoughts back onto the right track.

The first fallacy that seems to have materialised is that this came about because certain individuals dictated policy to others on how their cities were to be run. This did not occur. Every city head was invited to submit their agenda and matters that they wish to be discussed prior to the meeting commencing. A representative was present from every city and they were tasked with speaking on behalf of their city and representing the interests of their city in the meeting. This wasn't forced through in some backroom; this was a pre-arranged meeting to discuss aspects of our world that affect each of us. Just because you might perceive that things have to be done one way, i.e. 'all do this or die', doesn't actually mean that is how things are in reality.

Due to the submission of important agenda items, matters were brought to the attention of the Godfather Council from every individual city. Nobody was forced to agree with anything they didn't want to do; everyone was allowed the chance to explain their own position and ultimately make a decision on each suggestion which was right for them. You choose to speculate this was some underhanded event, when like everything else, it was completely transparent and every city made the decision that suited them best. If anyone was unhappy with decisions made, I would hope they would have the wherewithal that accompanies their position and raise them with the Godfather Council, because that is the whole purpose behind it. As I know the Godfathers and acting Godfathers to be capable and intelligent people, I'm guessing those people speculating this was not all above board are basing those fears on precisely nothing.

The next mistake that is being purported as fact is that new leadership has been stifled and this couldn't be further from the truth. We have imposed a limit on the number of HQs that affects certain cities...at the moment. We have done this to allow those families that we believed worthy of leading to actually have the opportunity to do so without needlessly overpopulating the cities.

There is a common concept in marketing known as market dilution. This occurs when I have a product that caters to the market and subsequently one of my competitors introduces the same or slightly similar product into the same market, attracting the same people. They don't bring new people into the market for their product, they draw from the same pool that I was previously selling my product to. This reduces the number of people buying either product; because some buy one and some buy the other - market dilution.

The same principle applies when we authorise 50 crewleaders when there is only demand for 1. The demand doesn't increase exponentially just because there is available HQ space, the demand remains constant and there is just a growth in the number of people fighting for the same amount of potential recruits. Should the situation change and we are bombarded with new recruits, then you can bet that the Godfather Council will increase the amount of HQs open in each city. However, as no city is currently full on the current basis, even incorporating inactives and NPMs, how can we claim to need more families? We haven't even reached maximum capacity in any city and people are already shouting about how terrible it is? Nothing has changed yet, so why not see what happens first before deciding we're all going to die.

Nobody, as far as I'm aware, has said at any point in time that new leaders will not be allowed to setup. Nobody, as far as I'm aware, has said that at any point in time will we not make new authorisations. What we have said is that all cities are limited to 4 HQs so that the current authorised families have a chance to actually lead. What we have said is that you need to demonstrate you're capable of being authorised for one of a number of finite positions available. Nobody has been excluded absolutely, and in fact, if you are good enough to lead then you have nothing to worry about. Anybody new, old or otherwise will be given the opportunity, provided that they earn it. This should also allay concerns that people are getting auth after just a few weeks as they will now have longer to demonstrate their capacity for the role. If you don't think you can earn the opportunity, then you aren't capable of leading in the first place.

We have an entire city free in Los Angeles. We have Las Vegas permanently open to new families. We have space in New York, Philly and Detroit. I'd take an educated guess that those cities that are currently at the maximum HQ level will be the ones responsible for repopulating Los Angeles with families when the time comes. Where is the problem? Just on that basis alone we can accommodate another 9 families, without even considering the Las Vegas situation. Who is being stopped from getting auth? We've already told you that we'll allow for another 9 families within this new system, so please stop saying that people are being prevented/stifled/held back and so forth, because it simply isn't true. Anyone who is able to prove they are worthy of auth will be considered for it when there is demand for a new family and if they aren't prepared to wait for that situation to arise, they can either try to take over and remove this policy or choose to setup in Las Vegas.

Some of the most idiotic people who populate our world are those with the most extensive bloodlines. Some of the most talented are those who are fresh off the boat. The current situation has left us with those leaders who survived wars and succeeded in receiving the support of their Godfathers. I disagree that people believe a name isn't known until it has been around for several generations, they only recognise a name when it does something worthy of recognition. Do we usually see people come out and speak as eloquently or knowledgably as Lola_Delaney when they haven't been around the block a few times? No. That's because most people need the few generations to work out the kinks. The first person in my line rolled by the name of Big_Daddy_Big and was a mouthy nobody who liked to give people the finger. Is he qualified to lead? Of course not. He needs to demonstrate he's capable of leading, capable of supporting and running a family, which is entirely the point. If someone new demonstrates they are able to lead, they'll get the opportunity. If someone old demonstrates they are able to lead, they'll get the opportunity. It isn't favouritism in play; it is rewarding those who deserve rewarding without prejudicing in one direction or the other.

The next misconception is in regards to NPMs. NPMs, since their creation, have been summarily rejected by the majority of people within MafiaReturns. The Gods response to this has always been along the lines of 'well, if your crewleaders choose to use them, then why would we remove them?' The crewleaders have now, unanimously I might add, decided not to use them. They made for lazy leaders because you could "lead" a family comprised entirely of NPMs, thus failing to require any form of leadership from you, but still enabling you to boost your firepower, protection and personal wealth.

A family of people takes skill to lead, because it is difficult to get people to buy into what you're trying to do, respect you enough to support you and maintain their happiness while you do it. It is difficult to negotiate with other leaders when your family fucks up, it is difficult to make the right plays and employ the right stratagems in the right situation, because you're dealing with actual people who make mistakes, have their own aspirations and sometimes, just deliberately want to fuck with you.

A family of NPMs requires none of these things. They make no mistakes. They cause no problems. They detract from the leadership experience and from MafiaReturns as a whole. They don't give new people the opportunity to lead a family, they give them a distorted view of what it is actually like and when this leader actually does get real members they aren't prepared at all for them or the consequences associated with their actions. They don't get an understanding of the subtleties of leadership and that is not right.

From the general mobster perspective, the arguments presented in favour of NPMs kind of just boil down to "they make money, therefore they are great". In addition to what I've already stated in regard to the negatives from a leadership perspective and despite what some people preach, money isn't the be all end all. This is a business, sure, but we are concerned about other ideals like family, honour and respect. We won't do anything for money; otherwise why not pimp out our daughters? Why not sell crack to kids? Why not sell your own ass on the corner in exchange for some green? The answers seem obvious, we're better than that because there are some things where money itself is not enough incentive and our other fundamental tenets or morality override them.

To exemplify this better I'll reference the original announcement, "we may be irrevocably engaged in the supply of narcotics". What this was meant to convey is that historically members of our business have withdrawn themselves from the trade in narcotics. They have done this because despite the financial benefit, it was not worthy of them; the penalties were too high, the moral implications were too great and the heat was too much. We have drawn our own similarities between decisions like that, sacrificing financial gain, because of the other benefits from not having them. (To any who claim this is unrealistic, how could the use of a real life Mafia decision, adapted onto a Mafia simulation be anything other than realistic?)

Something that has come up from the subsequent discussion is the leadership choice. As RHM to the Godfather of Chicago, my responsibility is firstly to ensure the safety of our interests and secondly to ensure the success of those interests. I think if you ask any leadership team within any city for their primary objectives, I believe you will receive the same response. It is logical and imperative for the hierarchy of a city to be that way inclined. Accordingly, Clarity, and her much lauded IWP status, makes her a very responsible and sensible choice in achieving both of those objectives. As far as I'm aware, this is her bloodline's first opportunity of leadership and surely that is the point and what you're seeking for us to encourage? We're actively giving new people a shot. Just because she has ancestors doesn't disqualify her from that camp. In fact, given that most new people barely understand which way is up, it makes her far more qualified and I'll always favour qualified over unqualified simply because it is logical to do so.

Similarly, Clarity speaks eloquently and knowledgably on various topics. She is evidently a capable and talented individual, with a strong structure around her with experienced names for support. This further enhances her criteria as someone worthy of auth, whether you like it or not, logically, it can't be refuted. Whilst it is our long term goal and that of the Godfather Council to progress the community, we can only do this if we have a strong foundation upon which to build. So, you may question what Clarity did within her 14 days to deserve the position, but the evidence is all around you. It wasn't "SOLELY BECAUSE" of whom her parents happened to be; it is because of the things SHE brings to the table. To boot, she's a new bloodline in leadership - the very thing we're being accused of stifling! We have to look to our house first before we can branch out and that is precisely why JesseJames made the decision he did.

Next, tyranny. I'm not sure exactly what you guys perceive tyranny to be. Is the communal power players of MafiaReturns coming together to enact changes and policies which are in the best interests of the stability, growth and development of our business the move of tyrants? It hardly seems like it to me. As a member of a family, you're being governed by the rules of your Don and Godfather, just like always. As a leader, you're being governed by the rules of your Godfather, just like always. As a Godfather, you're being governed by your own rules, just like always. I truly fail to see the tyrannical actions that are being suggested here? Perhaps you would be better spent looking at what we've actually done rather than massively distorting it.

Finally, Barbara-Royle. I can only assume the 'ONE' person you're talking about is me, and if it isn't, I'll address it anyway because of all the factual inaccuracies your throwing at us. Our world won't die as a result of logical changes employed by the Godfathers. If you believe it will, please provide some evidence to support this claim. Unfortunately, given that this policy is less than 24 hours old, you don't have any and didn't even give it the opportunity to progress before condemning it.

Nobody was told to do anything and nobody was excluded from doing anything with their cities - that is the whole point of discussing things. Why would everyone meet, agree upon an agenda and then be forced to do something they didn't want to do. That is foolish and untrue. If it is true, please show me where in the meeting this occurred? Once again, you won't have any evidence to support this claim because you made it up. Your perception; based upon nothing. I'm noticing a pattern.

You're wrong again if you believe Mrs-Doubtfire was killed because "one person alone" wanted it to be that way as multiple Godfathers knew and chose to target her, even after her attempted defection. Mrs-Doubtfire was a coward and didn't even have the balls to make a comment like you have done today. She wasn't well liked by those who attacked Roman, because of her lack of calibre and the only time she was even considered temporarily avoiding the death sentence she deserved was as a tool to be used. When it became obvious that the tool did not require use and the task would be completed without her, the thought was never entertained again. She had months and months to display leadership qualities that indicated she would be a good person to work with going forward and instead she did absolutely nothing with her entire tenure. That hardly suggests to me that this would be an individual suited to being part of the regime change or a worthwhile compatriot in forthcoming events. Fortunately, those attacking Roman didn't even have to reach a decision on her because she was killed by Roman and his followers, not them. A class act alright.

These policies are those of the Godfather Council, comprised of the Godfathers, suggested by the Godfathers and enforced by the Godfathers. You evidently don't believe things will improve, but given that your opinion is seemingly based on nothing more than your own misguided interpretations and prejudices, I don't place much stock in your opinion. I'd prefer to trust in those people who are at the forefront of this world, making decisions on the basis of what is right for their city and their community. If things don't pan out as predicted, then I'm certain they will be reviewed and adapted until they function correctly.

And, you want to talk about getting MIAs outlawed? Really? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

~G~rin.

I use NPMs for purely sexual reasons.

But that's just me, and probably Tip-Dean.

What did either of them do to dicate anything another city could/couldnt do?
The answer... nothing UNTIL the bans on all the rogues etc. Which is what lead to their downfall.

Beginning here, and continuing throughout the rest of your speech, I have to say pretty much everything you have said is complete bullshit.  My godfather and hisH are NOT tyrants.  Having sit in on one of these upperstructure meetings, I can honestly say that half the changes brought up in Grin's original speech were brought up by other cities than our own.  Were you in attendance at any of these meetings?  I think not, so how dare you speak so absolutely on what you cannot know.  Honestly, were I your Godfather, I would consider your comments an insult to my integrity. 

The comments about your ancestor could not be more fabricated.  I didn't want your father involved in the take down.  I was hardly a leader of the effort.  But I am random person X who was not interested in working with you as a leader moving forward.  I am just one.  I assure you there were others.  Did your father have allies that would have supported him.  Sure, of course.  In the end does it mater?  No.  Regardless, it is not Grin's father's fault. 

Unfortunately, anything worth saying has probably already been said by Grin, however I dozed off somewhere between "There is plenty..." and "...spite your face" whilst he was replying to some of the nay-sayers.

Points worth mentioning:

- Tarabh has had a stroke or simply has a lazy eye.
- Barbara sounds like her mother recently died and she was on the losing side.
- NPM's are baaaad, mmkay?
- Jammin's father was Lennie from "Of Mice and Men"
- I am in favour of these decisions (I was paid to say this one)
- ThomasHarrow is a dirty, dirty whore
- Nobody is telling the GodFathers what to do, they are agreeing collectively what not to do.