Zal, I agree and the decision to kill him was the correct one.

However, one must ask - what is the role of the Associate?

He broke the most important one in my opinion, that is, having the decency to ask the people who have given him a home for so long about their opinion on his project. BEFORE realizing it. Respect. When you don't care about respect anymore, you are indeed a big threat. If Grin was so convinced that his idea was interesting and applicable, why would the city heads purely refuse any form of discussion ? The fact of doing it that way and then beging to discuss with the city heads to try to find an agreement tells a lot about the project in itself than any other explanation. The form is often as important as the content.

Although if it's a written rule that you are seeking for, black on white, written in some great book of rules, I have to admit you won't find one. Respect is among the things that should be known without the need to be written down. Or at least, it's my opinion and I could understand that some people, perhaps even you Mr_Kuklinski, would wish to see rules to be sometimes clearer than vague notions.

The role of an associate is not to spit in the face of those who protected him and walk out on a family on a selfish whim.

If associates are free to walk and do what they wish why should a crew leader protect them?

They shouldn't - I agree.  However, should the role of the associate, rights and responsibilites, be sanscript?

What do you see your role to be as an associate?

I think you may be missing the point lads. It's quite obvious that Grin broke the rules that are in place today by severing his links with his crew in Las Vegas and setting up by himself in New Orleans. You can't escape that. Are the rules set in place today wrong? Should they be changed to better define the actual role of an associate? Does the associate take any oaths or have any deep loyalty that a made man has to his employers? I don't think these issues are the real point here.

I think, (and I may be totally wrong) that Grin, by his actions was trying to underline the fact that we still have two cities completely devoid of Mafia activity, with one of them being this way for many months. While all the time there are many crew leaders fighting for space in some crowded cities.

Regardless of whether or not you think the way he went about things was right or wrong... or whether he broke the rules that seperate ourselves from the street urchins, he has underlined a very important and current issue in my opinion.

Or I could be totally wrong and he's just a tit.

In my view the role of an associate is perfect the way it is and needs no adjustment, you serve the guy that gives you protection, prove yourself and then hopefully be inducted into "our thing".

I will say it here, there, over the hills and far away - once a person is made he is part of that family.

When he dies, it should be made public what killed him and why.  Otherwise, it means nothing.

Why the fuck should it be made public?

Bar some perverse belief that everyone should know everyone's business. I hate to be the bringer of bad timings but we are by nature fairly secretive people so that we can protect our interests from those who wish to close us down.

Grin made himself when he bought the HQ in New Orleans, so therefore it is clear as day as to why he died.

However there are times when Made men and above will step out of line, bring shame and disrespect to their former family. That is not something that should be aired in public. Unless the ranked person is a member of your family there is no need for you to know at all why they have died, that is unless it had something to do with you.

Otherwise it's not your business and your not in the need to know,

We are secretive but the nature of the honour of becoming Made means that it affects ALL of us when one falls.

So I ask again, should the reasons not be made available to men of honour?

I have to disagree with you there. If that person is a family member or a business associate then yeah sure it may affect you.

However if the made man that has died has no ties to you, or the family you are in, then it is none of your business. The only people that it will affect are the persons family, and possibly their city. While you may have had a connection to the person, that does not automatically entitle you to know the dealings of another family.

I disagree as well. Why does it effect all of us?

If the scouse lord chooses to pop pimpgravy because he didn't put out last night it certainly doesn't effect me. What happens in Vegas stays in vegas

In the truest sense of the word, though, a Made man is a friend of ours and of yours.

Therefore, what's the difference?

In the true sense unless he has been introduced to you by a mutual friend then you have no idea who he is.

But the genesis of what it means has been misplaced, no?

Sorry the only genesis I know is that book in the bible and I didn't pay much attention in sunday school. Would you care to explain that question?

The germination of the idea, the concept of being Made, has that not changed?

Did I hear Phil Collins?

How would the concept of being made have changed? It's still about making your bones and becoming part of the family. Why do you ask?

I can feel it coming in the air tonight.   Oh Lord.

Making your bones?  Does one have to do that?