I think that anyone wise guy and below may hold the title until there are Made Men in the family. I've always believed if you trust them with Made Man status then you trust them with making decisions and being a leader. All too often people just get the rank. This needs to stop and that would help it.

Just 2 more sponsors. At least take this to the PCs. Like I've said in previous posts (RadoX) it is more logical to have a made man, someone who you have brought in to your family, not a mere associate as your RHM.

If PC's aren't willing to sponsor it then the only reason it would pass the vote is because the people who are sponsoring it have weightier votes.

Not that it is relevant to this suggestion, but even if the PC leader, RHM & LHM all agree on a suggestion, they still need the support of at least one normal PC member for anything to pass. It is also unlikely that should the PC leader, RHM and LHM all agree on a suggestion that they will be in the minority. So the weight of their votes are not the overriding factor in any decision.

Not opposed to this at all, although I have a few devil's advocate points.

Since the RH and LH spots are based on the user's experience and not that user's character's experience, it may make sense that someone who currently isn't ranked that high may be the better choice for the crew (Counterpoint: suck it up and wait the 11 days for them to rank).

Another point may be that a newly authed Made Man would be at a disadvantage for the first few days if he was unable to select a RH or LH. Could be a heavy burden on someone just starting out (Note: could always be an exception where a Made Man can use a Wise Guy in either position).

Yodel, a Made Man can have a Made Man in his family when he sets up. A person should in theory make their connections in this life before branching out on their own, and so should have people in mind to come with him to his new HQ. CLs can invite up to and including their own rank, which as I said allows them to have Made Man characters join them.

This is ridiculus for the reason that you are implying that that there should be no blur between being made and XP ranking. A CL only has the option of making someone "made" after they have completed the necessary click monkeying. Regardless of previous characters, the CLs position as to whether someone should or should not be made is not purely in any part to do with how many petties and JBs that person has successfully achieved. Or in other words a WG who hasn't completed enough drug runs isn't necessarily unworthy of being a strong MM or even capo.The fact is this is NOT RL it is RP and whats more it is RP partly based on auto generated XP, hence not evey MM deserves to be made (yes we live in a world where higher volumes of higher ranks = better protection, cynical or not this is the case) and conversely not every WG doesnt deserve to be made for their RL experience.

Grin said the magical word in one of his replies: hierarchical. The mafia is a hierarchical organization based upon rank. Rank is given based upon experience, performance, ability and trust. We're playing a role-played version of the mafia. From that perspective, it makes little sense to have a Goomba Hand while a MM+ sits in the crew. Flipside, we all know coffee shop relationships drive trust. It doens't make it right, but it is what it is. I'm indifferent on the suggestion, but lean towards supporting it just for the principle of it. 

Food for thought on some of your anti-suggestion comments. Why are MM+ only allowed to purchase a HQ? Because they are leadership positions and who the heck wants to follow orders from a Goomba? Because using RP logic, Earners shouldn't be able to run their own crew? Just curious the train of thought here as this has always been an interesting topic to me. 

Lets not through RL into this, because I feel fairly safe in that no one here knows the inner workings of a mafia family.

It is an interesting subject for sure, however I am unsure as to what it will achieve in the case of improved game play etc etc.

Will it give people more chance at being a right hand/left hand. Nope I seriously doubt it.

They are first and foremost positions of trust, let us all remember that promotion to made man does not automatically mean you can sponsor? Do we change that too?

Promotion to made man, I believe, also means you have to obtain Auth to shoot gangsters.

It is probably also worth pointing out that you can't actually stop someone obtaining the rank of made man now days. One of the worst changes in recent history imo.

Does promoting someone to made man actually mean you trust them with running your family for you. I am really unsure on this. There are skills you have to possess to effectively run a family, these skill sets are not the same as you want from a made member of your family.

I guess the next large question is where do we go if we incorporate this when one of the reasons most are preaching is accuracy to real life

Families only have one Consigliere, how many Dons are there actually around? Should the RH and LH be the two highest ranked members of the family after the crew leader?

Or in other words a WG who hasn't completed enough drug runs isn't necessarily unworthy of being a strong MM or even capo.The fact is this is NOT RL it is RP and whats more it is RP partly based on auto generated XP, hence not evey MM deserves to be made (yes we live in a world where higher volumes of higher ranks = better protection, cynical or not this is the case) and conversely not every WG doesnt deserve to be made for their RL experience. of being a strong MM or even capo.

This is something of a quandary for the game because how do you recreate "making your bones" in the format of an online RPG? Difficult to do and performing a certain amount of crimes as a mandatory minimum, or "the necessary clickmonkeying" as you termed it, is a pretty good way to demonstrate that people have accumulated the relevant experience as there simply aren't enough unique scenarios to have people demonstrate their commitment to the family. The fact that the choice is then left up to the leader means that this mandatory minimum is not the be-all-end-all of the matter and the requirement of having the leader decide that the person has in fact earned their new found rank is a good way of limiting the unworthy who might have the experience but lack other qualities.

Taking that further, I would have to disagree with your suggestion that "not every WG doesn't deserve to be made" as they must have symbolically reached this mandatory minimum and as a Wise Guy, they haven't. I don't think that if you turned up to a family on the Monday and killed a Don on the Tuesday, that you would get Made on the Wednesday. I think you would be more likely to catch a bullet than a promotion. You need to have spent time honing your reputation, building your contacts and proving yourself. This is exemplified here by our "necessary clickmonkeying".

El_Nino, whilst it is safe to say that none of us are in a Mafia family, there is plenty of published literature from those who are/were in Mafia families and did discuss the inner working of those families. This provides the rest of us with a pretty solid understanding of how things worked and offers us plenty of insight into our subject matter.

What will be achieved in terms of improved gameplay? Very little. This change is about realism, not gameplay.

As to your larger question, if we proceeded down that route it would require an overhaul of the ranking structure of the game as a whole, as many of the "ranks" we have here are not the official ones. I don't think doing that is a worthwhile venture, but a minor change so that you can only appoint those people who are in the family to help run it? That seems logical to me.

Why are MM+ only allowed to purchase a HQ? Because they are leadership positions and who the heck wants to follow orders from a Goomba?

I can only echo similar sentiments.

Lets through a few examples out there.


You start up as a new CL as a made man. Following this through with the proposed change you have to wait 11 days before you can appoint a RH or LH.


We have a mass wipe out of ranks following a war. Must we wait x days before a new batch of people are capable of holding rank to be a hand?


I am happy to be proved wrong but where does it say that you have to be sufficiently trusted to run the family as a made man to be given the rank in the first place?

If you want a hierarchical system would a Don really take orders from a made man RH, just follow some of the "logic" you are using through in your thinking. We would be left in a situation whereby the top 3 ranked people should be the CL, RH and LH of the family.


My understanding of the position of Right hand and Left hand is they are trusted by the boss to run things in his absence and speak with the authority of him. In those circumstances then rank is irrelevant because you are speaking as the crewleader.

You start up as a new CL as a made man. Following this through with the proposed change you have to wait 11 days before you can appoint a RH or LH.

You can have people of equivalent rank in your family. Even if you couldn't, what's so horrible as a new leader having to wait 11 days before you can appoint a RHM or LHM? Is there really any need for a RHM/LHM at this stage? So, I'm still with being logical under this example.

We have a mass wipe out of ranks following a war. Must we wait x days before a new batch of people are capable of holding rank to be a hand?

These wars that you are discussing are infrequent occurrences and where absolutely everyone is wiped out, non-existent. Is there going to be a situation where there is only one person above Wise Guy alive? Extremely unlikely.

I am happy to be proved wrong but where does it say that you have to be sufficiently trusted to run the family as a made man to be given the rank in the first place?

I don't know about that one, I think someone stated that earlier. I agree that it is something of a myth that being Made means that you are ready to be the boss. I don't think that is true nor what being Made means. What I do think is that if you're Made, you're automatically a better choice for RHM than someone who isn't Made as you're actually in the family and they aren't.

If you want a hierarchical system would a Don really take orders from a made man RH, just follow some of the "logic" you are using through in your thinking. We would be left in a situation whereby the top 3 ranked people should be the CL, RH and LH of the family.

This touches upon my previous comment regarding the ranking structure. Would you ever have a Don who wasn't the head of a family? I think it is fair to say that you wouldn't, but would it be better if nobody ranked past Made Man until they became a sponsor? Didn't get past Capo until they ran their own family? I don't think it is, but that is the sort of changes that would need to be considered and instituted to be completely authentic.

There is a limit to which our authenticity can be taken and allowances have to be made for the nature of the game and the very fact that it is a game. I think there should be an allowance for people to rank in a manner that isn't strictly conventional rather than people reaching a glass ceiling. I don't however think it is a stretch to say that people below Made Man are not sufficiently qualified to serve as either RHM or LHM.

My understanding of the position of Right hand and Left hand is they are trusted by the boss to run things in his absence and speak with the authority of him. In those circumstances then rank is irrelevant because you are speaking as the crewleader.

Rank can never be irrelevant in a Mafia organization, otherwise why have ranks at all? This is a hierarchical society with clearly defined levels. Arguably the most important level of that hierarchical structure is the one gained by being Made. This is the point beyond which you're set for life, nobody can touch you; you're in the family.

I can kind of understand the argument of 'well if you don't like, when you're in charge you can change it' as this is something players could determine themselves and any family that selected nobodies as their RHM or Consigliere would be a laughing stock. However, I don't think it would have any substantial impact on gameplay, negatively or positively in coding this; it would just be one of those unrealistic scenarios that is always prevented.

Grin I disagree with almost all of that (which is unusual because I normally do agree with you voiced or not)

You start up as a new CL as a made man. Following this through with the proposed change you have to wait 11 days before you can appoint a RH or LH.

You can have people of equivalent rank in your family. Even if you couldn't, what's so horrible as a new leader having to wait 11 days before you can appoint a RHM or LHM? Is there really any need for a RHM/LHM at this stage? So, I'm still with being logical under this example.

Yes arguably this is one of the most important times to have trusted people at your side.

We have a mass wipe out of ranks following a war. Must we wait x days before a new batch of people are capable of holding rank to be a hand?

These wars that you are discussing are infrequent occurrences and where absolutely everyone is wiped out, non-existent. Is there going to be a situation where there is only one person above Wise Guy alive? Extremely unlikely.

Fair point.

I am happy to be proved wrong but where does it say that you have to be sufficiently trusted to run the family as a made man to be given the rank in the first place?

I don't know about that one, I think someone stated that earlier. I agree that it is something of a myth that being Made means that you are ready to be the boss. I don't think that is true nor what being Made means. What I do think is that if you're Made, you're automatically a better choice for RHM than someone who isn't Made as you're actually in the family and they aren't.

No again I disagree, who says your best game ranked WG to even goomba (of which there are a couple in positions at this moment in time) are not better RHM/LHMs then one of your click monkey Made Men who are great for earning or your ace shot capo who has zero social skills.

If you want a hierarchical system would a Don really take orders from a made man RH, just follow some of the "logic" you are using through in your thinking. We would be left in a situation whereby the top 3 ranked people should be the CL, RH and LH of the family.

This touches upon my previous comment regarding the ranking structure. Would you ever have a Don who wasn't the head of a family? I think it is fair to say that you wouldn't, but would it be better if nobody ranked past Made Man until they became a sponsor? Didn't get past Capo until they ran their own family? I don't think it is, but that is the sort of changes that would need to be considered and instituted to be completely authentic.

There is a limit to which our authenticity can be taken and allowances have to be made for the nature of the game and the very fact that it is a game. I think there should be an allowance for people to rank in a manner that isn't strictly conventional rather than people reaching a glass ceiling. I don't however think it is a stretch to say that people below Made Man are not sufficiently qualified to serve as either RHM or LHM.

Kinda seems like you are perhaps overstating the fact that MM is not JUST a given rank its achieved by click monkeying and that many below could be quite qualified in terms of leadership/organisation despite the fact they havn't done as many petties (I mean that in a literal sense rather thank role play).

My understanding of the position of Right hand and Left hand is they are trusted by the boss to run things in his absence and speak with the authority of him. In those circumstances then rank is irrelevant because you are speaking as the crewleader.

Rank can never be irrelevant in a Mafia organization, otherwise why have ranks at all? This is a hierarchical society with clearly defined levels. Arguably the most important level of that hierarchical structure is the one gained by being Made. This is the point beyond which you're set for life, nobody can touch you; you're in the family.

I can kind of understand the argument of 'well if you don't like, when you're in charge you can change it' as this is something players could determine themselves and any family that selected nobodies as their RHM or Consigliere would be a laughing stock. However, I don't think it would have any substantial impact on gameplay, negatively or positively in coding this; it would just be one of those unrealistic scenarios that is always prevented.

The point here I think is that this "unrealistic scenario" is born by an unrealistic method of ranking (ie clicking/completeing petties and jailbreaks). To expand someone who has never said a word on the street or perceivably in a family chat other than perhaps Hitsquad scenario can achieve a Capo + rank easily. So by allowing under Made RH/LH can be equally argued is MORE realistic counterbalancing an unrealistic of method of ranking.

No again I disagree, who says your best game ranked WG to even goomba (of which there are a couple in positions at this moment in time) are not better RHM/LHMs then one of your click monkey Made Men who are great for earning or your ace shot capo who has zero social skills.

Kinda seems like you are perhaps overstating the fact that MM is not JUST a given rank its achieved by click monkeying and that many below could be quite qualified in terms of leadership/organisation despite the fact they havn't done as many petties (I mean that in a literal sense rather thank role play).

I think what Grin is saying is that from a RP perspective, ANY MM+ is better than ANY >WG and therefore the only choice to take the reins should it come to that. Of course Jason sitting behind the monitor as Character2 is more qualified than Tom sitting behind the monitor as Character1, but from a RP perspective we must consider the current ranks of each Character. It's not Jason vs Tom here, this is Character1 vs Character2.  

The point here I think is that this "unrealistic scenario" is born by an unrealistic method of ranking (ie clicking/completeing petties and jailbreaks). To expand someone who has never said a word on the street or perceivably in a family chat other than perhaps Hitsquad scenario can achieve a Capo + rank easily. So by allowing under Made RH/LH can be equally argued is MORE realistic counterbalancing an unrealistic of method of ranking.

That is a very confusing word combination - I'm not exactly sure I understand what you mean. If a lame/mute gets promoted past Wise Guy, then there is an issue with the CL and his/her promotion standards. I'm not tracking on how this "counterbalances" anything. Again from a RP perspective, an Earner brand new to the shores wont be calling the shots and bossing around a seasoned Capo. Agreed that there are some issues with our current ranking system though, as the top 3 positions are not necessarily the highest ranked mobsters in the crew (RP wise this would make sense, however something would have to change/reenginered to make this flow realistically while keeping the integrity and fun of the game in mind.)

The whole point of being a hand is you speak with the authority of the boss.

If you really want to play it out code it that once you select a person under the rank of made as a hand they cant be swapped out until they are a made man. That way the boss is saying I consider this person a member of the family.

{seriously if you implement this change it will slow authing people down to a virtual standstill}

There is no need to have a RHM or LHM when you initially start up. There is nothing for them to do as you don't have enough members to require that level of micromanagement. Why can you not handle this yourself? A Capo would run a crew bigger than most initial families.

Any Made Man is worth more than any Wise Guy and below by the very fact they are Made Men. A hot shot Wise Guy is still a Wise Guy and is not a Made Man. Vedder has subsequently clarified this pretty well.

I don't really understand your next paragraph. What I'm saying is that there has to be some demonstration of accumulating some level of experience before you could be considered for being Made. If there wasn't, the game wouldn't really work in its current format. It isn't a perfect ranking system, but it does the job pretty well for the most part and provides a realistic framework for our game to exist within.

It cannot, in any way at all, be argued that it is more realistic to have anyone below Made Man as a RH/LH in any circumstance. The unrealistic scenario is born by a leader's decision to appoint an unsuitable choice as RHM and not by an unrealistic method of ranking. Once upon a time when only the RHM and the CL could issue invites it had a little more merit than it does now, but those days are gone. Only a Capo and above can be a sponsor; why do you think that is? It is because a Capo runs their own crew and would have their own associates. A Goomba wouldn't, a Goomba would be a member of a Capo's crew and a Goomba would not be leading the entire family. That would just not ever happen.

There must be some demonstration of progress through the mob. It is inconceivable that someone would join one day and be the second highest ranking person within it the next. People spent years attempting to get Made and some never achieved it. Our system is not perfect, but it at least symbolises this progression through the time spent and experience gained.

Nino, you speak with the authority of the boss but a boss would never even try to allow someone who was a nobody to speak vicariously through him anyway. The problem we have is that people know that BillyBigBalls, the no name Gangster, is actually a famous player and knows all the things that they knew as the person playing is the same. If people didn't know that BillyBigBalls was anyone else, he would just be a no name Gangster and he would never be the RHM. Ever.

How many new players as Gangsters get made RHM? Zero. Why? Because they are nobodies. Every Gangster should be the same from our RP perspective. Therefore, no Gangsters should be RHM as they are all nobodies. They are the bottom rung, the lowest position in the family, the grunt workers, the front line, street level associates and nothing more because they haven't proven they can be more yet.

I would not like to see your suggestion coded as there is no way a real boss would do that as the person is not Made. It would be far better to make them pick someone who is already Made or wait until someone within their family gets Made.

I do not believe this change will slow down authing people in any way whatsoever and I don't see the jump you've made between this suggestion and that conclusion. What leader doesn't know someone who is Made? What leader doesn't know someone close to being Made? What leader cannot handle running a family of less than 10 people by themselves whilst they wait for one of their members to get Made? The only answer I can come up with to those questions involve the person being a pretty shitty leader who doesn't deserve to be leading in the first place, and in that case, I'm glad they won't be getting authed.

There's a fundamental difference between a perfect world in a system of neatly organized cogs where everything and everyone is assorted by rank and stature in game, and rank and stature out of game. Chemistry between two players inside and outside of the game ultimately influence who becomes someone's most trusted confidant, and who does not. That's how any online multiplayer game has worked since.. well, ever. As black and white as people would like to paint it, you simply cannot compare a new player to someone who's persona outside of the game has studied the ins and outs of every clique, every organization, every personality.. and so on. This becomes a matter of practicality, and eventually, it becomes a matter of life and death. I can't think of a rational reason for why you would choose Made Man A who has little, if any, organizational or leading experience over Wise Guy B, who's bloodline served as your previous right-hand and knows every inner cog of your family. And, no, you can't necessarily counter that if they lacked those skills, they wouldn't be a Made Man in the first place. And, even if I delved into the realm of realism, the boss in a family has the final say in all matters. End of. Noone is forcing you to be in his or her's family if you disagree with their choice of hand if it is a matter of rank. Choose another crew that fits with your beliefs. With that said, there's over 75 accounts that are under the dominion of one crew or another that has appointed someone below the rank of Made Man (including a Godfather) as one of their hands. I don't see much of a mutiny or a mass riot over it. In fact, during the course of my entire playing history, I've seen very few people take issue with it. It seems practicality has trumped the need for character realism for quite a while, now.


Denigrating a leader for deciding to pursue an arguably safer option where a right-hand is familiar with the political landscape, is attuned with their organizational skills and knows how to speak to other organizations in times of duress - especially when you might be responsible for the lives of several dozen people - over someone merely for a simple rank is not rational in any sense of the word. With the exception of new crews, an organization does not, and should not, have to resort to someone who may not know how to handle the vast new responsibilities that come with being a Hand simply because of their rank in a game where death comes swiftly and often unannounced.

I do not believe this change will slow down authing people in any way whatsoever and I don't see the jump you've made between this suggestion and that conclusion. What leader doesn't know someone who is Made? What leader doesn't know someone close to being Made? What leader cannot handle running a family of less than 10 people by themselves whilst they wait for one of their members to get Made? The only answer I can come up with to those questions involve the person being a pretty shitty leader who doesn't deserve to be leading in the first place, and in that case, I'm glad they won't be getting authed.

The jump isn't hard to see, most people like a hand to be in place as cover more than anything else so that they have an eye on the game over a prolonged period of time. With the power a right hand wields careful selection can give your family a nigh on 24 hour presence within the game. This has massive implications to how a family is perceived and the power it obtains. A family on constantly has a better chance of obtaining new members, it is a considerably harder family to attempt to war.

So why would it slow down auth. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this change WILL NOT bring about more people getting a chance at being a right hand. All it will do is Joe potentialCL will wait 11 days whilst his mate gets to the rank of made man. He might wait another 11 days so this hand can be demoted for BGs as well so that is 22 days waiting. Throw in a left hand and you potentially delay a crew leader setting up for some 33 days to give time to demote BG up and and obtain made men hands of people you trust implicitly.

Now lets clarify a few things.

First and foremost promotion in this game does not mirror real life in any shape of form. That is a generally accepted principle of Mafia Returns and it has worked for how long now? 10 years maybe more!!

At various points in the game we ditch realism for gameplay because it enhances the user experience this is one of those times.

ralph:


I still haven't seen a substantive argument for why a RHM/LHM should be below Made Man. It takes 11 days for a completely fresh account to reach Made Man. Should a leader not know someone who is above Wise Guy already? Should a leader not know someone who is nearly Made already? Even if they don't, are they not capable of running a fledgling family by themselves for 11 days?

Why should we say, well it is slightly easier for you to completely and utterly flout realism rather than waiting for a maximum of 11 days, so that is fine, proceed?

This every Made Man = RHM material gambit isn't what I'm suggesting or have suggested previously. I'm saying they are in the family and therefore they are more important by that fact than your Wise Guy and below. That is irrefutable, because a Made Man is more important than a Wise Guy.

As to your delving into realism, I welcome you to show to me an example of a Mafia family appointing a nobody as a RHM. The boss has the final say, but a boss would never appoint a RHM who wasn't even a member of the family. It would not happen and did not happen as far as I'm aware. I don't think it is a significant compromise to the practicality of leading to have to appoint a RHM/LHM who are members of the family.

Are you seriously telling me that a leader isn't capable of running a fledgling family by themselves? How many members do most families have after 11 days? Most I would guess would attract between 5 and 15 members in that time frame. Is that a number that can't be managed by any individual? And even if it is, how does this leader not know someone who is Made Man and why don't they just wait for them to be Made Man?

Nino:

The jump is very difficult to see. Why do none of these hypothetical leaders know someone who is Made Man or above? Why can't the leader wait 11 days more to be authed until their RHM candidate is of sufficient rank? Most leaders do actually know someone who is both a capable RHM and ranked above Made Man and even if they don't, 99% of auths will know about it at least 11 days in advance.

Thanks for the capitalisation and bringing bad news, but this change shouldn't be about giving more people to be a chance of being a RHM anyway. It should be about being realistic where we can be. Joe potentialCL doesn't know about his auth in advance? His leader comes to him and says "you're setting up right now"? Seems extremely unlikely to me. Demoting for BGs is another problem that we're trying to fix and even if there was a delay for that, most hands get demoted after joining their CL, not before.

Promotion in this game follows the framework of the Mafia, which is an accepted principle of Mafia Returns. Flouting this framework for the sake of gameplay where it is necessary to do so, I'm all for. This is definitely not one of those times as there is no reason to tolerate these lowly ranked RHM/LHM.