I'd live the kind where I knew I wasn't just waiting to be a plus one and doing nothing much in the process.

That sounds like a foolish saying made to trick members into following blindly no matter how off the wall the Crew Leader gets. Would you stick by your crew leader if they started picking off their own members randomly for fun? Would you stand by them if they initiated a war with the whole community over a PP incident? What if a war was started over boredom and everyone in the family but you wanted it? Why can't a person draw their own line for what is and isn't a loyal crew leader?

Diablos, this feels like a thinly veiled bitchfit at the decision of TokyoZombi and my mother to turn against Solastalgia in the war just gone, but whatever, I'll bite.

I wasn't intending to come to the streets to share her reasoning. It's been written down, of course, I know what it was, but the people who mattered, as far as she was concerned, knew. The ones who didn't... well, whatever. If she'd survived the war, maybe it'd be a different story. I'll say this here and now though: from the moment Cab_Tufting died and his son announced the intention to not return to these shores, my mother never expected nor particularly wanted to survive.

"I'm not going to pussy foot around and make some long drawn out speech, I'm getting straight to the point. Time and time again, we all have seen and experienced people leaving their crew in the midst of a war. What do you all think about this so-called "Ship Jumping"? When, if ever, is it okay?"

It depends why they do it. Those who did it during this last war because they disagreed with the decision that my mother made... I can kinda understand. My mother was out of town when the war kicked off. Basically, lets say she wasn't in a position where she was able to communicate in a fashion more effective than sending quick messages to her wartime right hand, Gypsy. This means that she was unable to communicate, explain, give instructions - all of which leaves members feeling neglected and in the dark - and she would've known all about that.

"The second and last thing I would like to address tonight is something we saw in the last war: When is it okay for a crew leader to turn, or stop helping their Godfather or the person that authed them?"

As I said, I don't have to explain my mothers decision to you. I don't really want to get into it, because both her and Solastalgia died during that past war. What I will say, is that she had been unhappy in North Side for a variety of reasons since only a couple of weeks after her auth. She had considered very seriously stepping down or retiring on several occasions. It was for her crew that she continued, it was for her crew that she stayed, and it was to her crew that she was loyal - and she didn't hide this from Solastalgia.

So when the war went down, what was she to do? She was told nothing by Solastalgia, including even who was the attacking side. When she was offered the chance to try to safe list members of her crew by those on the attacking side - who WERE willing to tell her what was going down - what else was she to do? Her own life wasn't a matter of importance to her. But of the couple of former members of hers still standing justify that decision, at least in my eyes. Had she not chosen to do what she thought best for her crew,  the FEDERAL AGENTS may have been destroyed in their entirety. I don't regret her decision. And I think that even at the moment she was shot by Solastalgia, my mother too would not regret her decision.

She loved her crew, she did what she thought was best to ensure their survival. Some will undoubtedly suggest that she acted out of rabid self interest; that is not correct and is a complete misunderstanding of her intentions.

The simple fact is, that both TokyoZombi and my mother were unhappy enough with Godfather Solastalgia and his handling of things, in particular that last war, that their first loyalty was to their crews rather than to him.

To sum up... My mother was called a leader. By nature, leaders lead. When she felt it impossible to follow the leadership of Solastalgia, she lead her crew how she saw best rather than blindly followed.

Enough. I've heard fucking enough about romantic ideals of 'honor' and 'loyalty'. This world does not run by them,sorry to burst your bubble there. 

This world runs on power. Rather, the people in power. If the people in power choose to uphold these frankly idiotic and romantic ideals then...the rest of the world WILL follow..unless you're Roman..in which case quite a few will still follow you. 

Moving on, this world is based on business. Not honor. Something that is good for business will survive..something that isn't,will need to be removed.If I believe sparing someone from the wrath of my hitsquad will be better for business, you're damn right I would do it in a fucking heartbeat. 

I believe you are some what Mr. Moran, but in all honesty do you truly believe that the ability to stick to Romantic notions holds no place at all? Romantic notions are one of the most popular methods of gaining support for that power you so freely claim rules the lands. I would also like to say that there is a place for honor in business because you have to trust the involved parties and the concept of trust is directly tied to honor. There are also things other than business that drive movements. Almost nothing brought up in this discussion is absolute or can stand by itself, and that's what makes power struggles/ship jumping/our way of life interesting :D

Aaah ok, I'll bite, old pal!( I can call you that without being harangued for it,right? Plis tell me I can)

Romantic notions are good for rhetoric,yes. Saying 'I will focus on business' doesn't have the same flare as 'We will be brothers and sit around the same table sharing stories of maidens we rescued!'..however, in my mind, that is all they are good for. Rhetoric. Nothing more,nothing less.

As for the whole concept of trust..well, who said anything about trust? At least, trust in the sense that you are implying. Sure, I'll make a deal 'trusting' somebody's sense of self-preservation or in some cases, a lack of the same sense..but a deal based on trusting someone to be honorable? Well...that's just bad business. 

Now...the point about nothing being absolute..well, I think I made that very clear with my statement about the people in power. Now..are the people in power absolute and constant? Nope. So...when they change..so will the views on these 'ideals'.

Hope I've cleared it up.

The harangue for the use of that word was because he was being a hypocrite and using that word for the same purpose the other person was saying kiddo and got offended by kiddo so until you get offended by a term I use that you use we're fine :D

The point of rhetoric is for morale, whether you believe it or not. I know those commies seem to being doing well over in Russia ruling by fear, but I have a feeling they won't end up doing too well in the long run ruling their people by fear compared to nations driven by rhetoric and the pursuit of happiness if you need an example of the importance of morale. Fear only works when someone has something to live for and fear itself strips that from people :D

I brought up trust because you brought up business. If you think that the only thing driving your members to earn is the fear of being shot (you probably have a deal to protect them in exchange for them earning and following rules) then I truly pity your members. There are deals and business in everything we do that involves interactions. Trust is imperative in everything any person does. And if you invest nothing into appearing honorable you'll never get a single fair deal and you'll be forced to use unnecessary threats because you were incapable of proving to be a decent tradesman and unnecessary threats are very bad for business :D

You haven't cleared anything up, to be honest. If anything you sound as if you believe you've found absolute answers without understanding what makes something an absolute :D

An absolute is something that will never be found to be false and power over another is a concept that requires consent from those the power controls. If they choose the other option then what will you have left? Power over less and less until you actually choke yourself out, such is the story of the creature dependent on the existence of another, whether they know they are or not :D

What is colon capital D?

A smile :D

OH. I get it. Semi-colon end parentheses.

I think the Colon Capital-d looks happier :D

Aaaah of course...the 'use enough words and people might think you're smart' tactic. There used to be another on here who did that... he doesn't anymore. Sadz. Guess you're his replacement.

The point of rhetoric is for morale, whether you believe it or not. I know those commies seem to being doing well over in Russia ruling by fear, but I have a feeling they won't end up doing too well in the long run ruling their people by fear compared to nations driven by rhetoric and the pursuit of happiness if you need an example of the importance of morale. Fear only works when someone has something to live for and fear itself strips that from people :D

Aaaah, I love how you just make the random assumption based on nothing but your ideas that I lead with fear as the tool. Are you someone I lead? Do you have some info I don't know about? Of fucking course not. I do not lead with fear,ted old pal! My crew is not a bunch of sheep who need to fed politically correct bullshit to follow me. They are functioning individuals who realize that while I may not be big on hand holding..I have their best interests at heart and therefore they follow me. 

Now as for your unabashed declaration of 'pity' is it? for my members...well, 'old pal' I don't think anybody did ask for it and I'm pretty convinced they are happy where they are.

I find it quite amusing though, that you...a no name C thinks he can presume to teach me how to lead.

An absolute is something that will never be found to be false and power over another is a concept that requires consent from those the power controls. If they choose the other option then what will you have left? Power over less and less until you actually choke yourself out, such is the story of the creature dependent on the existence of another, whether they know they are or not :D

Aaaah yes of course...those in power don't really have any control over those with 'Civilan with big balls' syndrome....besides them...well, the rest of this world does believe in power. As for me choking myself out...'old pal' when it happens, I'm sure I'll look all contrite..or maybe just dead.

Four paragraphs aren't a lot of words, lol.

I make that assumption because you used the word 'Enough' redundently. Sounded like you were trying to end a conversation with an aggressive stance to me and then you said "Sure, I'll make a deal 'trusting' somebody's sense of self-preservation" and I was convinced. :D

To me that reads lots of unnecessary demonstrations you're willing to use force, which is a play on people's fears.

I don't claim your people are sheep, I claim that your belief people don't need honor combined with the unnecessary hints at aggressive stances and the idea deals are done out of fear of dying to people who deal with you would make life in that type of a crew hell if you actually practice what you're saying out here in all of your business dealings :D

If you treat them as you say where they have to fear for their lives if they don't live up to a contract, then I do pity them :D

I'm not trying to teach you how to lead, I'm just trying to have a back and forth because I disagree with you and I don't believe you're actually trying to prove your side as much as attempting to aggressive stance and/or awkardly comment about me to win an argument :D

Finally, that's not what that said at all. It said that if those at the top don't take the time to give those they depend on for things like taxes space and a life free of threats the ones being taxed will either revolt or die off and therefor they'll kill off the thing they depend on. It's a poke at your 'they'll deliver if they want to live' stance that I greatly disagree with using in business deals unless it's absolutely necessary :D

Aaaah yes of course...those in power don't really have any control over those with 'Civilan with big balls' syndrome....besides them...well, the rest of this world does believe in power.

Personally, I believe in power and da money, money and da power, minute after minute, hour after hour.

But that's just me.

I'm not out here to try and convince you, ted, that what TokyoZombi and Ziva did was the right thing. 

For the members of their families that survived. and even the ones who died and yet have new offspring gracing these shores, we know it was the right thing.

You don't know the whole situation, hell I don't know the whole situation, but I know enough of it to know that there simply wasn't a structure put in place to deal with the kind of absolute quiet coming down from the district leader when it came to a war, and that when it was made clear that he didn't seem to care whether or not anyone in his district got out alive, decisions were made by Ziva and by TokyoZombi to protect their crews. 

When you become a crewleader, your first obligation isn't to your city head. It's to your crew. It's to the 30-40 people who join your family for protection. You can't expect them to do right by you if you won't do right by them, and that's precisely what Ziva and TokyoZombi were trying to do - look out for THEIR members.

I'm not trying to come out here and slate Solastalgia. I'm really not. Like I said, I don't know the whole story. I don't know what went wrong, I don't know why there was no communication, and I'm not here to speculate or cast aspersions on his character. All I do know is that for WHATEVER reason, there was simply nothing coming out of the leadership advising people on what to do, telling people where to go, and who to shoot at. There was simply nothing. And a decision was made, rightly or wrongly - and this is the issue where you and I will, apparently, never agree - to extricate themselves from this war whilst trying to save as many lives as possible. 

I believe both Ziva and TokyoZombi did the right thing. I believe that they were trying to save as many lives as possible during an incredibly ugly situation. I believe that the true test of leadership is not blind loyalty, but the ability to assess a situation and make the hard choices that need to be made for the betterment of your crew. I just wish that they had been able to save more lives, but that's a different discussion entirely.

Lots of strong words, people trying to put on some kid of bad-ass facade, fuck knows to be honest, perhaps that's just me rising my eyebrow a little bit too much. With regards to my stance on the whole subject, my bloodline decides carefully who he is going to join and sticks with them through life and death. I can account for one story where one of my bloodline jumped ship during a war. He felt so guilty for doing so that he ended his life soon afterwards. Having said that, I have always made it work with crew leaders that I disagreed with. In a business world I guess you could call them my employer. I do all the tasks they ask to do, regardless if I like it or not. Call it blind loyalty or whatever, but that's me and no one will change that.

I respect the notion that people come from different backgrounds, so their morals are slightly different. My bloodline came from a very similar environment to this, where they frequented that land for generations and generations. During my family's time there, they met many great leaders and some outstanding mafioso. During these times, my family were given set traditions to live by and uphold and they kept to these ideals, even now in a different land and a different time, I still uphold what my blood line taught me.

I guess to sum it up, I will sit on this rather uncomfortable fence. I will always stay loyal to the end, but I think I can just about understand why people might jump ship. After all, this world is not just about loyalty, but survival also.

Frankly, the only thing I disagree with Anna on is this statement:

"Diablos, this feels like a thinly veiled bitchfit at the decision of TokyoZombi and my mother to turn against Solastalgia in the war just gone".

I don't think it's thinly veiled at all.

I just wish that they had been able to save more lives, but that's a different discussion entirely.

I have to say, that I think that that is my mothers only regret too, Logan. Had she actually been in town when the attack went down rather than stuck away from home for several hours, I believe that she may have been able to relay clearer instructions and therefore perhaps indeed save more lives. But, a few of her members made it. So even if only to a small extent, her decision paid off.

With regards to my stance on the whole subject, my bloodline decides carefully who he is going to join and sticks with them through life and death. I can account for one story where one of my bloodline jumped ship during a war. He felt so guilty for doing so that he ended his life soon afterwards. Having said that, I have always made it work with crew leaders that I disagreed with. In a business world I guess you could call them my employer. I do all the tasks they ask to do, regardless if I like it or not. Call it blind loyalty or whatever, but that's me and no one will change that.

Loyalty, to me, goes two ways between a Godfather and his Captains. If we were just there to blindly follow, why wouldn't our Godfathers just accumulate themselves massive crews directly under their control? Our world isn't supposed to be that way. Leaders are supposed to have a degree of autonomy. That means that Godfathers have to earn and retain the loyalty of their crews via their own good management.

My mothers crew forewarned Solastalgia of this attack. He did nothing. He couldn't even manage words of warning. He instructed them to the coffee shops, and reportedly did nothing when he got them there. He reportedly re-assigned pro's from what was supposed to be two of his most loyal members to give them to Ares. Hell, he could hardly be bothered to even visit my mothers crews coffee shops when times were good. What exactly were her crew supposed to die for? A man who had showed so little regard towards them, at the end more than ever?

They deserved better than that.

I fall to the floor whilst convulsing. Eyes bulging from my sockets,  I start to turn red and struggle for air as the on lookers watch me writhe in pain. Oh dear lord, I think I have contracted the infectious OOCicitis. Moments later, I stand up, and act like nothing had happened.

I understand what you are saying with the blind loyalty bit, Anna, but I don't see it as so, I just left it for other people as I know they would interpret it as so. As for saying how our world is supposed to be, I don't think you can really put a measure on that. This is a role playing game, so we role play to the way we would want to. This site cannot, and never will, accurately act out the mafioso world. If it could then there would be no characters called Wargasm, or plenty of other names. I could be here all night saying what should be, and shouldn't be part of this world. I guess what I am trying to say is that for some people, blind loyalty is the key and works perfectly for them in this world.

After I finish my last sentence, I suddenly snap out of the OOCicitis. Looking around and seeing the bemused looks on everyone's face, I decide to quietly back away and join the back of the rabble of people.

I'll put this out there, based on what my father told me. The difference between a member jumping ship from his CL, and a CL turning from his godfather is one of responsibility.

first, let me say that my father believed in the concept that only a made man is truly part of the family. Anyone below that rank is only an associate, and thus, While i may be unhappy with them for leaving, and may take steps, Jumping ship is something that may not, for me, be a mortal sin. In/after a war, He would have been less likely to go after associate who bailed out, because they have not taken the vow of "blood sees me into this family, only blood may release me". Not everyone sees it like that, But that is how he saw it.

A made man has taken that oath. Blood in, blood out. If a made man had jumped ship from my father, he would have contacted other CLs, and taken the required steps. Period.

Now, to the case of a CL going against his Godfather, I see it like this. A CL should always be thinking in terms of family. What is best for the family, what will keep the most of the family alive, etc. etc. etc.  So His actions must be based in that theory. If Your district is under attack, and by going against your godfather, You can save your crew, then do what you feel is right. Perhaps you feel the right thing to do is to go down with the GF ship. Then perhaps you should look to save your associates. But Maximum survival of your crew should ALWAYS, be the first priority of a CL

Personally, I don't trust anyone who claims to be blindly loyal. 

There's no such thing as 100% blind loyalty. Everybody has a breaking point when they're no longer going to simply sit back and put the needs of the Godfather over the needs of their own family. It's simply fact.

I'm MUCH more likely to trust someone who says "I'm loyal to you so long as you're worth being loyal to", because I know where I stand with them. I know that as long as I don't fuck them over, they'll have my back. Loyalty is a two way street. You have to prove yourself worth being loyal to if you want people to be loyal to you, and just expecting blind loyalty out of people who follow you without putting any effort into it is folly.