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| Munchkin, New Orleans and Fork Missed Satanta | Started by: ThomasRourke on May 03, '09 12:02 |
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Lets all keep it cool (^_^) its all PnP guys and lets all play it nice and cool *leaves the room and shuts the door behind with all due respect with the persons discussing things inside. |
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| Reply by: BLaCKLiST at May 03, '09 14:17 | |
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I think there's one way to sum this up. Jimmy and his belligerent RHM made a call that was so bad that they were going to have to kill half the people serving under them to enforce it. And Jimmy decided he was 100% OK with the wholesale slaughter of his own people. Once again. He got away with it, again, but getting away with it doesn't make it a good call, and stubbornly deciding you're willing to slaughter your own people rather than admit a mistake doesn't make you a good leader. |
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| Reply by: Im_On_A_Boat at May 03, '09 14:19 | |
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| Erm, thats not entirely accurate Im_On_A_Boat. There once was a time when what you say was entirely true but things have kinda moved on since then. Now this is EXACTLY what makes you a good leader. As long as you can provide top choice entertainment for your band of muppet friends, you will be classed as a good leader. Fuck everything else, it doesnt matter. Family? Honour? Honesty? Respect? Meh, these are only words to be bandied about like yesterdays soup contents. | |
| Reply by: Kev at May 03, '09 14:25 | |
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I think more or less everyone except the Godfathers of Detroit, New York, and Philadelphia all can agree that giving an order half your people won't obey is piss-poor leadership. The only question is whether the leadership is piss poor because half your people won't obey an order that seems reasonable or because your order is so off the marks that no sane person would follow it. ThomasRourke is contending that it's the former, Munchkin's fallen obviously contended the latter. Whichever it really is simply doesn't change the situation at all, though. You don't even need to get into specifics on this one to see how bad of a leader Jimmy is. He had to kill half the people working for him over his orders last night. There is no situation in which that happens to a good leader. But that's the problem, isn't it? We have three Godfathers who don't see that, and then they wonder why there's a steady stream of people willing to throw it all away for the one in a hundred chance they might get a bullet through their swarm of bodyguards to one of them. Ahh, well, eventually a few of them will hit. I, for one, pray that whoever succeeds these three bloodthirsty strong-men is cut from a better slab. |
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| Reply by: Im_On_A_Boat at May 03, '09 14:37 | |
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Glad to know I'm a man in your eyes. Thanks. Point the second: no one has the right to question their leader's motives. Period. If you are, it's not a question of piss poor leadership. It's a question of "Then why the fuck did you join the guy in the first place if you're not there to be loyal to him until the end?". Paint it any way you want, but the dissent doesn't come from the leadership side, but rather the side of the disloyal. You say Jimmy killing half of his men was showing the world he was a bad leader. From hopefully much more trained and experienced and well, logical and intelligent eyes, hopefully they saw a crew leader finally getting rid of the deadweight that wasn't obeying his orders. The bigger statement here is that he's more willing to do what it takes to ensure his family's survival, instead of pandering to the individual egos that walked amongst them. A good soldato will do whatever is asked of them, no matter what. I could ask my own most loyal of Captains to shoot himself in the foot and never be able to walk again. He may give me a "M-ma'am?", but in the end when I say jump he says "how high?". Not only did his soldatos fail to do what was asked of them, but they went on a tirade and managed to disrespect several people in the process. I too, in the future, hope that my successors will be cut from a better slab. A slab that certainly doesn't entail Im_On_A_Boat's mentality of "wishy washy membership" and "disloyalty is okay". My hope for the future generations is that we attempt to get back in line with what This Thing of Ours is, rather than the direction that the few, the proud, the idiots would like to see it pulled in. |
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| Reply by: Marietta at May 03, '09 14:49 | |
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Maybe its just the old adage that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We have seen one Godfather retire only a few weeks ago because he was so sick of this life and what was happening in it. And before you go hassling my head over my words here anybody, these are the words that MY FATHER received from the man himself before he took his own life. Its just so unfortunate for us all that this is the calibre of leader that we have setting an example for the rest. If killing their own people off just for shits and giggles is their only way of entertainment, then maybe its time to sign into the funny farm and retire gracefully. |
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| Reply by: Kev at May 03, '09 14:55 | |
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| Are you saying that retiring is the caliber of leader you want to see? A leader who sees fit to just give up, quit, and leave his family to their own devices? I wholeheartedly disagree with this thinking. Abandoning your family for the old folks home, is just a ridiculous gesture, and I for one feel you need to rethink your logic. | |
| Reply by: Dru_Delray at May 03, '09 14:58 | |
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Who said this was for entertainment? Let me lay something on the line here. Munchkin, God rest her soul, should have been dead long before now. I cannot count on both of my hands the amount of times I was disrespected by her crew, and received nothing but a "Oh so sorry" in return. The only reason she lived as long as she did was the fact that JimmyTheLionHeart was loyal to his family, and I respect the man in return. When that leader, however, throws disrespect into his face after all the gracious leeway he had given her time and time again, how is he not supposed to kill his members? I beg of you to summon the ghosts of and ask any of those leaders you so covet from the past and ask them how they would have handled the situation. Five to ten says that they wouldn't have stood for the disrespect in the first place. This place hasn't changed much in the style of leadership. It's changed in the way people respond to it. |
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| Reply by: Marietta at May 03, '09 14:59 | |
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When did a godfather retire? .....Don't tell me Marietta is now a ghost. |
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| Reply by: RourkeyRourke at May 03, '09 15:15 | |
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Pardon me for using the proper title for the highest rank out here, Marietta, instead of this invented term you prefer to use. I think Butt_Ox addressed that one in one of his rants earlier. Point the second: Your loud statement proved my point perfectly, thanks. No self-reflection. No consideration that there's something more to being a leader than barking orders and shooting people who in any way disagree with them. No consideration of the fact that a leader should have enough common sense to know what orders should never be given, since some orders are absurd on face. Notice that this is true even if you are correct that orders should still be followed despite absurdity. Your blurb is nothing more than a textbook example of the piss-poor leadership I'm talking about here. Let me put this as crystal clear as possible. Jimmy gave an order. Over half the people who were loyal to him to the end and fought to the death for him just three days earlier responded to that order with, hardly even paraphrasing, "I'd rather die." Giving that order was bad leadership -- even if you are correct and bad leadership should still be followed it was still bad leadership. And then after he gave that order and someone decided that it was worth dying over calling him out on it (in private, where no one could see the disagreement was happening) following through with the slaughter of his loyal men and women was once again bad leadership. Nothing more to it. Doesn't matter what the order was. Doesn't matter if every order in abstract should be obeyed. Leadership is not just barking the order. Leadership is also knowing what orders don't cut so deeply against human nature that someone would literally rather die than obey you. If such a huge number of the people loyally serving under you are willing to die on principle over your order, it wasn't an order you should have given. You talk about ensuring family's survival by killing half of them. I laughed. I really did. I don't even know where to begin on that one, so I simply won't. You're as off the rocker as he is if you said that with a straight face. I'm glad you other two got your jollies killing people last night and intervening in internal PH/NO affairs. Stay classy. |
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| Reply by: Im_On_A_Boat at May 03, '09 15:18 | |
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Holy shit are you out of touch, Marietta. Do you really believe this horse shit? Or are you just desperately trying to keep people convinced that you're right and no one should ever challenge those in power? There is not now, nor has there ever been, a good leader who believed that those below him should blindly follow him. The best leaders encourage people under them to think for themselves and to be willing to speak up when they think a mistake is being made. No one is perfect and no one can do it alone. That's why a good leader will encourage people under them to offer their point of view and will listen to them. If you find yourself in a position where the majority of the people under you disagree with a decision (and yes MOST of the people disagreed with it even if some of them chose to go along with it) then you are obviously a boob of a leader. And don't bother with the "his rank makes him beyond question" cop out. That's just an excuse to keep people from examining their leadership because, if they do, they probably won't like what they find. |
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| Reply by: JamesThePuppetGF at May 03, '09 15:31 | |
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I just wanted to say to the member that post there opinion. I would like to say that is very sad to lose a few of our honored member during this war and also losing Don Munchkin Family. I never knew him, but war is war, we try to protect our family our own way just like any other families do. I not sure why the reason this war was provoked and I really don't care anymore. Is not worth talking and wasting value time arguing about it.It happens and the best think, is learn from it, so you can be prepare in the future I know lots of you are angry with what happen. But this is dying game and we should expect what is coming towards us. Because we have chose danger. We are smart and capable. We run extortion, illegal drugs like cocaine and heroin, prostitution and illegal gambling. Sometimes burglaries, muggings and robbery were used for getting income. You name it,we all done it. We rich and powerful we got politician in our pockets, police, CIA, FBI, even the got the army. This happens thank to the Bosses of Bosses. The commission. The Godfather and Godmother help us rebuild our organization. Build our empire. But the war between each other is wrong and I know and you all know. But is up to the commission power to stop it. Only the Godfathers or Godmothers have the power to stop this war from happening and instead killing each other, becoming all alies and helping the Cosa Nostra oath rebuild. I' am not here to act like a boss, I just explaining the life we chose. We have family oath to obey and we are not good or evil. We are normal people. We follow our fathers and ancestors path, that they took. I hope to all the families " Good Luck ". |
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| Reply by: Capital-T at May 03, '09 15:36 | |
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| Cheers for the heads-up Capital-T, you've really laid this argument to rest. | |
| Reply by: NewBestFriend at May 03, '09 15:39 | |
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Stays classy. The fact that you didn't even seem to realize that I was not involved in the events last night throws your entire argument into suspicion. How can people believe you, when you're willing to slander me, my name, my men when they were not present for the demise of Munchkin's family. What you have just shown is that you are unable to separate facts from your own blind hatred. Anyone who can believe you after that I truly feel sorry for. You feel my "loud statement" proved your point perfectly. You're welcome, but I am inclined to disagree. You are now equating my leadership to piss poor leadership, for which you are off the mark. Anyone with EYES can see that I care for my family and city. I don't "bark" orders at them, as there is a mutual respect and I know that these men and women will follow me to the depths of Hell. That is leadership. Inspiration. Motivation and drive. Sparking enough loyalty that if I told them to kill someone who was stirring up shit within my ranks they would. Those men that were most loyal to Jimmy last night were there to help him when his family was at a low point. Being a leader isn't what you think it is, or at least what I can surmise from your self-loving, ego-stroking commentary while you're too busy being "right". I would know. I've been here, to Hell and back, through the flames of Hades, and I am still breathing. Being a "leader" isn't helping your friends buy tons of bodyguards and having good fun fun time in the HQ. Being a leader is making the hard decisions. Enacting punishment when it's needed. Being firm but fair. Taking a stand for what they believe in, and managing to have people believe in them enough to stand behind them when that time comes. Munchkin, by every definition there, only had the last part right. Jimmy, as I have now seen, is well on his way to becoming all of the things I just listed. You bloodline probably isn't familiar with all of those things I just mentioned, as they have never lived long enough to experience such a sensation from leading a crew and city. So, from my objective viewpoint, what happened happened. Munchkin at least died with a little dignity, which is more than we can say about your great-great-grandfather who went off his rocker after losing his tiny, unsuccessful family that I honestly cannot recall the name of. Or your grandfather. Or now your Father. I'm starting to see a trend. Hopefully you can break that curse, because you'll honestly be better off for it. |
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| Reply by: Marietta at May 03, '09 15:40 | |
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| James, the only person who has the right to question a leader is the Right or Left Hand. That is why they are there, for a reason. Unless you have an esteemed position within said family, your opinion should not count unless you are of Made rank or higher. I'm not out of touch. I listen to my members when they have gripes. But if they act on their opinions or disrespect, threaten to shoot or publicly drag people into the matters, that is considered rogue like behavior. Doing anything that goes against your Boss' will is acting as a rogue. I'm sure we can all agree on that. We saw a perfect example of it just last night. | |
| Reply by: Marietta at May 03, '09 15:43 | |
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The events of last night are quite clearly tied with the events of today, and I don't need to go into Mickey_P's thread to dig out your sentiments on the matter, Marietta. Don't play your high-and-dry card where it has no place and your public sentiments contradict it. "Being firm but fair." No more quote necessary. Your point is my point. You just have a demented view of fairness if you think what Jimmy did last night was fair. |
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| Reply by: Im_On_A_Boat at May 03, '09 15:44 | |
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You are welcome NewBestFriend. Glad i could help. I just wanted people understand a bit of my side of the story of wat i think. No hard felling on anyone. I hope i didn't offended anyone. Thank You |
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| Reply by: Capital-T at May 03, '09 15:46 | |
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You're being extremely off the mark. I got involved with things today because Sal moved to an open city against his Crewleader's will, which made him a rogue. Rogues get hunted by all. I take great pleasure in eliminating threats from society. How that makes me tied into the events of last night still remain to be seen. I'm waiting. He was being "firm but fair" in the fact that what your Father was saying was going to get him killed. It may not have been yesterday or last night, but your bloodline has an awful history of opening it's mouth when it really shouldn't, and questioning decisions that aren't their decisions to question. If it had not been last night, your Father would have died some day in the near future. The fact that Munchkin chose to defend him was noble, yes, but was acting against HER crew leader's decisions. It all comes down to disloyalty. He was firm in his actions by weeding out the people in his business that would have eventually sink the entire organization he had toiled to build. He was fair by letting them live long after their expiration date was up. |
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| Reply by: Marietta at May 03, '09 15:51 | |
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| Shall we compare that to the reasoning behind taking out that crewleader to the reasoning behind taking out Persian, and pass judgement? | |
| Reply by: Zenith at May 03, '09 15:53 | |
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| Without meaning any disrespect, but merely observing, it does strike me as odd that the Godfather of Detroit is out here fielding issues related to my own Godfather's cities. | |
| Reply by: Manson at May 03, '09 15:54 | |
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