Following my post on this very old thread: https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/348733#9512339, I thought it would be prudent to offer some ways of resolving my concerns with the feature instead of just saying it's bad.

Make tax information available to LH. Turn the LH into a tax-enforcer role, rather than just a substitute in the absence of the CL or RH. Plus, this grants the LH some power in terms of crew finances. At the end of the day, the CL could just swap his RH in and out of the LH spot to verify it, but the information wouldn't be in the CL's hands.

Make tax information available at a price. Charge a fee for a CL to view his members' earnings. If he suspects someone's not paying enough, he can tip his bookie to see who's been paying up and who hasn't.

Make tax information available to sponsors. Put sponsors in the tax-enforcer role.

Make tax information vague. Don't provide exact figures on how much is missing, just offer whether or not the member's tribute is above or below his tax rate.

Make tax information available to all upper structure. Let crews dig into and optimize the new tax features, instead of hoping they'll be some kind of enforcement authority for numbers they can't predict or verify.

Each of these have pros and cons, so I'll leave it to you all to determine what would work best. I clearly support the last option, to make it available to all upper structures, because I think crews are all generally on the same page. Crew leaders operate on the loyalty and goodwill of their members, not by enforcing tax rates on them. Making the information available to upper structure would allow them to utilize the individualized tax rates to optimize their crew. Will members have to pay more? Maybe. But as of now the entire system is avoided; not just to avoid taxes to the mayor but because it just doesn't make any sense to use it.

I believe sponsors can already see their associates earnings/tributes. But the one thing that I gathered from here that I do like the most is for the LHM to have access to taxes or be more like the tax enforcer. 

In my eyes, the LHM is the Consigiliere of a family. A lawyer/finance type of guy. I truly think that would give another aspect to the LHM and give it some more meaning. 

IvanRomanov I just checked, and although a sponsor can see an associates earnings, its just the same info as is held in the Crew page.

I like the idea of keeping the information vague, but i also like the idea of the LHM or Sponsor being responsible for enforcement. However, I'd like to add a counter balance to this to make it, god forbid, more realistic.

The CL sets the tax rates, exactly as is, no change there, and it tells the player how much they owe as normal. All made men (and non sponsored crew) send their tribute to the LHM, he is the financier, and over sees the crews money, verifying the cash flow and kicking it up to the CL via a crew account accessable by the CL, RHM and LHM. Tributes would be added to the Crew overview page only when the LHM physically updates it. So if Player A sends $50,000 to LHM B, it is up to LHM B to update the earnings for that player by 50k. The LHM, RHM & CL should see something on the crew page with a rough guide to how powerful an earner the Player is, kinda like the Wealth status and BG status in Game. Low Earner, Average Earner, Above Average Earner, etc. This will allow the LHM to roughly assess the level of the tribute, still allowing unscrupulous players to hold something back if they want to go that way. So if player A kicks up $20k and I see he's an exceptionally high earner for instance, I know he's holding back.

Sponsors take the role of LHM for their sponsors, tracking their earnings and updating them on the Manage Sponsors screen before kicking the money up to the Crew account. This means the LHM doesn't have direct control over associates, but it also means that sponsors can also cream a little off for themselves, if they want to be that devious/dishonest. This adds an extra dimension to the sponsor role, and would perhaps make CLs think more about whom they arward with Made man and sponsor status. What I would also propose, although this is open for debate is that all MM+ ranks are automatically designated sponsors, it being up to them as to whether they wish to recruit, and therefore vouch for an associate.

I realise this all sounds a little complicated, so if I need to rexplain something, or fine tune something, let me know :p

Also like your ideas Chris, as this is something myself and Tony were trying to implement and had to take another route due to earnings only being visible in the profile if they are kicked up to the CL directly, cutting out the LHM or a person in charge of finances.

So having earnings updated manually by the LHM if they receive the cash directly, or by a sponsor if they also receive that cash directly, means the earnings page for the player sending the money up is always going to show what was kicked up, regardless of how many hands if goes through thereafter.

This will also allow for money to change hands multiple times, if needed. I understand crews aren't massive like they use to be, yet for realism purposes having the sponsor take the cash and update earnings, then kick it to the LHM to do the books, who then kicks everything to the CL, makes it more roleplayable and ties into game mechanics.

Maybe having the option for an auto update if the money is still kicked up in the same way as it is now, would be able to cater for those who use the system as it currently is. So the system continues as is, with new options for those wanting to use a financial head in the family to take kick ups and manually update earnings.

Chris_Vaughn, that does seem a little overly complicated in my opinion. The purpose of my suggestion is to simplify things and in doing so, encourage use of the taxation system instead of avoiding it. I'd enjoy seeing the LH as the finance guy for the crew, but I don't think tribute should be sent to him. I think tribute should be sent to the boss as normal, but only the LH can see whether or not crew members are meeting the quotas set by their CL.

The whole "vague info" about earnings is kinda goofy. People who want their earnings hidden are substantially more rare than people who just want to kick up money to help their boss. Plus, if we're going to say that crewleaders can't know how much an individual is earning, it's a bit backwards to then say that the crewleader knows how much an individual is earning but only in a vague way. Crewleaders can already see if a player is wealthy, rich, or extremely rich, so that information would really only be superfluous.

I think the relationship between sponsors and associates should be a bit closer, as well. The LH will see a sponsor's owed tribute in addition to the tribute owed by his associates. That way, the sponsor has to kick up the taxes for his associates, and it's then up to him to retrieve that money from the associates. The whole crew's earnings and owed tribute will be available to the LH, but associates' owed tribute will be lumped into their sponsor's.

I think you would be surprised about the numbers of people who just want to kick up the right earnings Denam, but only Squishy could answer that definitively. I personally know a handful of players who have never kicked up the full amount since the new system was implemented. Sure they may balance that out in the long run with extra donations, but the option has to be there for players to withhold cash if they want.

It may be kind of goofy in your view, but realistically, how would a LHM or a CL know exactly what a given member is pulling in each week? Unless he is there personally over seeing each individual. The mafia is notorious for killing folks for skimming off the top, and I believe this is why Squishy made things this way. However, the system as is has gone completely the other way. A CL or Financier should only ever have a rough idea of what an associate can earn based on past experience, however, as the CL does not assign jobs such as numbers running, extortion, racketeering, there is no way for a CL to judge this. That is why I suggested a descriptive term rather than a figurative one. With patience and work, a CL will be able to work out rough ranges for how much money falls into each category, which brings the idea of experience into play.

What that leaves the greedy player to do is decide how much money he can skim off and not incur the wrath of his CL. Seeing the Wealth of a player only shows what they have on hand. I've had in excess of 20 million in the bank, and shown as dirt poor in the past. I think I've already explained above why a CL should only have a general idea of how much a player earns rather than an exact figure.

"but the option has to be there for players to withhold cash if they want."

Why? Why do players need to be able to withhold cash with no consequences? Isn't that a bit unrealistic?

"how would a LHM or a CL know exactly what a given member is pulling in each week?"

Then there shouldn't even be a tax system in the first place, as that is based on how much a given member is pulling in. If a LH or CL have no way of knowing how much their member is pulling in, then they shouldn't be using a system that hinges on that number, should they? The owed tribute figure is based on revenues * tax rate, but since the CL can't even view that figure then the tax rate is completely irrelevant. If the CL can't know exactly how much a give member is pulling in each week, then how does he have the power to set the owed tribute figure? Do you see the paradox?

What that leaves the greedy player to do is decide how much money he can skim off and not incur the wrath of his CL.

I don't see why this is being encouraged. Even if the numbers were visible, you aren't just going to immediately be killed if you're $1 short on tribute. There is absolutely no risk/reward in this system; you either tribute or you don't and there's nothing your CL can do about it. Not only does that defy realism, it puts the CLs in a terrible position. How are you supposed to lead, organize, or manage people when you don't even have a clue how much they're earning?

I think a system with total visibility of earnings would still allot for a greedy player to "skim some off the top". He can test the waters, and see how much he can get away with without incurring the wrath of his CL.

More importantly, it seems like we're literally coding in features to strip away any sense of testicular fortitude that a leader could possess. There is a line of changes that have slowly eroded any reason to be bold as a CL. Your HQ bonus is subject to the whims of your members with no way to know or enforce it. Your finances are subject to the whims of your members with no way to know or enforce it. It's no surprise we now consider "kindness" to be one of the most important qualities in a crewleader; because that's the only fucking way he gets anything done! Without the HQ bonus or the money from crew members, he's just a bold suit. And both of those components are completely out of his control; so he has no choice but to appear to be the nicest guy on the planet in hopes that, out of goodwill and loyalty, his members will be "loyal" and send up tribute.

Now if we set up a system where the information is visible, it forces leaders to make choices; do I rough up one of my guys to make sure he doesn't skim money off the top, or is his other contributions worth more than I can threaten? Presently, leaders have absolutely NO POWER whatsoever in terms of managing or enforcing crew finances. And I don't see any logic in that. We want crewleaders to be bold and ruthless, but we give them absolutely no tools to accomplish that. We force crewleaders to be very contrary to realistic mafia bosses because we give them no power over their members.

So if you want crewleaders to be bold, powerful, or ruthless, then you need to equip them to do so. If you want them to make choices instead of just sitting and hoping that their members will tribute, you need to equip them to do so. If you want them to be any more than a bold name, then you need to give them the means to do so. If they have no control over their HQ bonus and no control over their finances, you destroy any hopes of having the type of crewleader you keep describing.

"If you guys really want power over your income, hike up your skirt, pull your balls out, and tell your member what they need to kick up weekly.  Don't rely on game mechanics to run your crew for you. You guys are more than capable of going above and beyond what features are there, but I do not believe we should add in features to reward mediocrity on the same level as great run families."

But then we're back to square one. Crewleaders don't know how much people are earning, so they don't have any way of forming a reasonable request for tribute, and so the players are accountable to no one. This isn't game mechanics running the crew; that's what used to be in place. We used to have automatic taxes taken out of each profitable activity. That, I'll admit was having a game mechanic run your crew for you. But if you make that information visible, you force choices to be made. Should the leader have a high tax rate in the first place? Should the leader enforce that tax rate on everyone? Should the members test the waters to see how much they can get away with without being punished? etc. None of these choices are available right now. It's just "do I want money or do I want my boss to have money?" That is the ONLY choice that has to be made by either the leader or the member. There is no decision-making going on outside of that. Tax rates have no effect, you can't enforce them because you don't know them, and trying to enforce the tax rate will only hurt you in the long run because you look like an asshole.

Which brings me to the contradiction in this whole feature. You want leaders to try to enforce their tax rates without knowing the figures to go with them, but then you want the system to reward crews that members "enjoy" being a part of. So which is it? Are they supposed to enjoy their crew and kick up based on that, or is the crewleader supposed to enforce a hidden tax figure on them? They can't do both. If you try to enforce a hidden tax figure on someone and make them pay more than they want to, they won't enjoy their crew. You say you want to reward "good families," but what it seems to do is reward the crewleaders that cater to their members, which is very contrary to realism.

I don't see why tax information needs to be hidden. I like the fact that it's not automatic, but I don't see why we jumped from automatic to completely hidden. That just seems counterintuitive.

I mean, at the end of the day, the CL can't enforce a tyrannical tax rate on everyone. He'll either end up killing off his crew as punishment, pissing them off to the point where they'll betray him, or just flat out not get the money he wants when he asks for it. This doesn't just unilaterally place all power in the hands of the CL; it just forces the CL to decide what is best for his crew, and it forces the crew to decide what is best for themselves.

And individual tax rates can be negotiated, which means crew members can discuss their tax rates with their leaders. And even then, they can lie when they do so! If they wanted to start holding some money to themselves, he could just lie and say gambling hit him hard that week. I just feel like by putting absolutely all power in the hands of the members, we eliminate an entire dynamic that could be really interesting.

Hence my suggestion that CLs should only ever have a rough idea of what a player earns Squishy.
 

And no, Denam, I see no paradox. the Tax level is there to give the player an idea of what they owe, not the CL. Now if a player is a damn good member, the CL can reward them by dropping their taxes, meaning they owe less and can send up less. If a CL wants to tax you more, he can set it higher. Whether you pay the correct amount is up to the player themselves, exactly as it is in all organised crime. A CL can circumvent the taxes altogether, either by setting them all to 0, or by saying I want X amount of money per week, regardless of what the taxes say. Again, this rewards hard workers, by meaning a smaller percent of their earnings goes to the CL, and it punishes the lazy as they have less of their earnings after paying the CL.

Surely you can see how it works in real life? I'm a Gang leader, and I say to you, run my drug dealing business in the east side. Every week, you have to give me 30% of the profits. Unless I'm there, watching, how will I know what you earn in a week? I can ask to see your books, and have my Accountant to go over them, but if you are careful, you can hide what you are earning. Sure, i may know that the previous guy made $5 million a week, meaning I should expect around $1.5 million, but as long as you are in the ball park of this, how can I say for certain if you are ripping me off?

Would it surprise you to know that in the past I have short changed leaders I didn't like by 50-65% of my taxes? They never once questioned it. And it should be encouraged, very much so. I am a criminal, end off. This notion we have of honour and loyalty is complete BS, people get fucked over ever day by members of their own families. In fact when you and I where in the same crew, you screwed me out of over 50k. One of the NY CLs stole a credit off me the other day. So yes, we do fuck each other over every day. So why shouldn't a member be allowed to screw over his CL if he wants to? Its up to the CL to discover this, and stop it. And as Squishy says, if the CL is loved and respected, then it won't be an issue in any case.

And No, he doesn't have to be the nicest guy on the planet. If you look and see one of your associates is dropping big credit bets, flashing the cash, buying BGs and stiffing you on tribute, then you have the right to kill him, demote him, hold back on his button what ever. A Fair CL will get further than a cruel one, its the one thing that Curtis taught me. He even gave off to me when he first became a CL cos I organised extra tribute to finish the Crew defences, and he believed I was being overly hard on the members money wise. But that doesn't mean you have to be like that. You have played for a while, you have a good idea of what you can earn at certain levels, so you can easily message your members and say I expect you to donate X this week and unless you have a damn good reason for not doing so, you will be punished. That is your choice to make.

Whilst I don't believe that a CL should be completely oblivious to his crews earnings, I don't think that the old system of knowing exactly what each person earns is realistic in any sense.

"Would it surprise you to know that in the past I have short changed leaders I didn't like by 50-65% of my taxes? They never once questioned it. "

Because they can't. They have no way of knowing how much you should be sending up, so why on earth would they question it?!

"So why shouldn't a member be allowed to screw over his CL if he wants to?"

Right, so here's the thing. In all of those examples you gave me, you were aware that you were being screwed over. All of them. And that awareness offered you certain choices; do I shoot this fucker who just stole 50k from me? Do I confront the CL that stole my credit? Those choices are entirely unavailable if you don't even know that you're being screwed over. My point is not that members shouldn't be able to screw over their bosses; my point is why should they be 100% hidden in doing so?

"You have played for a while, you have a good idea of what you can earn at certain levels, so you can easily message your members and say I expect you to donate X this week and unless you have a damn good reason for not doing so, you will be punished. That is your choice to make."

And once again, we're back to square one. Why bother having a proportional, scaling tax system if at the end of all this we don't even use it; and instead just try to calculate and predict how much each member owes?

At this point, I'm not making a plea for realism. I'm making a plea for game dynamics. Right now, taxes are futile and useless. There is absolutely no reason to even set a tax rate right now. I think there is an opportunity here to provide a new dynamic between crewleaders and crew members, one that allows for fairness, ruthlessness, kindness, and treachery. But right now, there is absolutely no dynamic at all.

Hence why I suggested the system I did. Although complex, it still allows for concealment, it still allows for CLs to be more aware of what they should be getting, and it still allows for your most trusted to fuck you over if you made a bad choice in choosing them. Sometimes the simpliest solution is not always the best.

As long as tax rates are relative or unenforceable, there's no reason to have taxes enabled. That information needs to be made available to someone, or the awesomeness of this new tax system is entirely useless.

Can someone please echo the concerns of having a CL fully aware of his members' owed tribute?