Ok, so thanks to Denam for the original idea, and although at times I felt like we were all butting heads, we've managed to come up with something Squishy is happy with, so, I'd like you all to take a look at this, and give me your honest feedback.

This is some small tweaks to give CLs more control over their finances.

1. Crew Bank account created, accessible by CL, RHM & LHM.

2. Earning Prowess stat under Manage Crew, that adds up all earnings that a player pays tax on, and compares it to the District rank average. If the Rank average for an Earner is 200k a day, and I earn 100k it shows my prowess at 50%. Likewise if I earn 274k it shows a prowess of 137%. This gives away no values, but it allows a CL/Hand to judge who is active more. It also will allow CLs to reward active players who donate their fair share. (Reason its not exact figures is Squishy doesn't want that)

3. All Made Men and non Associates of sponsors' tributes go to the LHM. He then has to manually update their earnings in the Manage crew tab. He then deposits this money into the Crew bank.

4. All associates tributes go to their sponsors. They have to update their earnings on the Manage sponsors page which will auto feed into the Manage Crew page. They then kick the money up to the Crew Bank.

Pros:

• Allows for effective use of the individual taxes, which is what I had in mind when I originally suggested that change.
• Allows for CLs to have more of an idea of what people in their crew actually do, without revealing exact details or values.
• Adds a new dimension to the LHM and Sponsor roles, giving them some extra work to do, increasing their value to the CL and family, and the prestige associated with being one of these roles.
• Continues to allow crew members to Skim money and hold back from their CL donations without being caught if they do it right, but allows for crew to be caught and punished if they are too greedy.
• Allows for LHM and Sponsors to also skim from the money they handle, with the same caveats as above.

Cons:

• May allow some CLs to decide to be money focused rather than crew focused, which should be their right. As you have said Squishy, if they don't run their crew right, they will suffer in the long run, but i still think that should be their choice.

So please be gentle, but we need your honest feedback. :D

I actually really like this idea as a whole. I don't really see anything wrong with it at all and my past of Kin have never used taxes because it has been more efficient for them to not do so and it has never hurt me so anything that makes this future usable is a good thing to me especially if Squishy is on board.

Also Latin if this comes into play you will see your money once I am IWP

I think its a top idea pal, i love the prospect of the earning prowess, it will add a new aspect to how things are run. I also like the emphasis it puts on the hands, it makes a crew leader pick their hands that little bit more carefully, as well as giving that LHM position that little bit more responsibility. 

Like you say, the only thing that i could see a potential banana skin is the fact that cl's can now performance manage their crew members on their earning prowess. Personally, i dont see it as a terrible thing, but i can see where none crew leader folk might have an issue.

Overall though, id be for it.

Few questions, also MM'd you on this:

1. If I understand correctly the LHM and all sponsors who have brought in recruits will have the option to edit the earnings page?

2. Will the RHM and CL also be able to edit earnings page?

3. How will the money one gets when they vote be added in, will it still be auto towards the players earnings as it is currently?

4. If someone decides to go rogue for whatever reason and they happen to be a sponsor will it be possible they can just edit the earnings page and 0 out everything or delete everything and basically screw up the entire earnings page or will there be measures taken to assure this doesnt happen?

I like the idea up to points 1 and 2. The 3rd I'm a lil iffy on, but if you choose to expand the LHM's roll as the crew accountant...I can live with that. A LHM has to be trusted out right anyway. 

Point 4, is where I have reservations. For a crew thats old and has a lot of Made Men, you can pick and choose who will sponsor players and such. There are players that are new to the game and they become Mades, and they like being sponsors...and they enjoy it. It gives them something to do. Hence I don't mind them taking an active approach in the recruiting process. But to give them all the tributes to me is a little much. For one I don't even think they would know what to do with it. We would have to train them up...which isn't a huge problem. But if you look around, as it is...most people auth old faces cause of the trust and ability they have shown before. I fear if the sponsor becomes the out right accountant to their sponsors, there is a possibility new players will not get that option anymore. I don't want to take anything away from the new guys on the block.  

Point 4 was my worry as well LordBlackwod  that was the purpose of asking my question #1.

Hi TonyCapazzo. The LHM will alter the Crew Earnings Page, as you see in the HQ. The Sponsors will alter earnings in their own Manage Sponsors page that already exists, and this will automatically update the Crew page, so Sponsors aren't seeing any more info than they already do, just getting a bit more responsibility. I can understand your worries about someone wiping out their associates earnings. However there are a few points that may make this more palatable

• The most that they will have access to is 6 associates, so they can't wipe everyone out.
• The LHM is the ultimate Accountant, so if he is doing his job right, putting the figures back after the rogue is dealt with should be fairly easy have have little effect on the members earnings. As their sponsor will be dead at this point, they will then fall under the LHM from then on.
• I suppose Squishy could just make it that all you can do is add to the existing figures, not replace them altogether. something like this: Earnings: $1,159,456  Amount to Add to Earnings: _____________

If you really wanted to allow the RHM and CL to be able to edit it, I don't see an issue, but as the money would all now go through the LHM I don't see a need for it, but again as this all would require a sufficient number of people to agree to it for Squishy to make the changes, that would ultimately be up to you guys.

Any money that automatically goes to the CL already, would continue to do so, and if that money is added to earnings, then the server would also continue to do this. After all this money isn't really earning per se, more of a bonus from the game for helping get the name out there.

LordBlackwod I had originally asked for Squishy to make all Made Men + automatically sponsors, but he was against this for the following reason:

Absolutely 100% not, this is not something that should ever be automatic, it would be extremely detrimental for the game, the crewleaders, and new players to the point where it can't even be remotely considered.  This is the 2nd most important role in the entire game all together, and actually the single most important person in the game for any new players for first week or two of playing.  The success of this game lives or dies depending on the sponsors.  Lets not give it to everyone.

Now I do agree with Squishy's assessment of the sponsor, so I guess its up to your guys to choose good sponsors. At the end of the day, you are supposed to trust the people you give Made man to, personally I feel that a little extra power for sponsors is a good thing, and if it takes a small thread in the HQ to explain their duties, or an extra paragrapgh in a mail, is it a big chore? After all, I assume if you give a newbie sponsor status, you give him a little helping hand rather than just saying, "you are now a sponsor, go forth and whore" :p

I realise that some of this is a big change, but I'm all for giving folks more power and a bigger role in the game. LHM at the moment, is a back up back up CL, with very limited power. The Sponsor should be an awesome job, you are a button man who has a small band of associates working under him, but it seldom works out that good. In the real Mafia, these guys would tribute through their contact, not send an envelope directly to the Don, that's what I was going for.

I like the idea as a whole.

The LHM spot would get proper use as the financer and accountant, which is how its seen in the traditional structures I've come across.

Sponsors now have a more realistic hands on approach in the earnings part of the game, which again is realistic in the traditional sense.

I echo Chris' thoughts on why it's a good idea to choose the right made men and school them properly, in response to both Tony's and Lord's concerns.

You guys are basically saying 'we may promote people to made man status that either shouldn't be there because they aren't able to do this job properly, or we haven't schooled them well enough in this area'.

Gun training isn't the most straight forward of things to understand, and teaching a noob this area takes time and effort. This will just be another area of the game that will also take a little more time and effort to teach, yet in comparison, really not that much at all.

If you promote people that can't do what's been mentioned, then it's really the upper structures fault in this respect. It really isn't that hard of a thing to teach and oversee, based on what Chis and Denam have come up with. And if the person in question can't be trusted to do it, or really can't grasp it, why are they being promoted to a made man position?

I also don't see it being an issue for CL's to performance manage their earnings. The mafia is largely an earning operation, as are all businesses so having more emphasis in this area can only be a good thing.

Chris I agree sponsor is a big responsibility. And I know how excited some of these new guys get to write RP's and such when given the opportunity. I understand we can teach sponsors how to be responsible. All I am saying though is, giving sponsors responsibilities such as the one in point 4 will probably diminish the amount of new faces carrying the sponsor tag. But they can certainly be taught up, no question about that. Just most won't trust new faces with that responsibility I think...imo.  

well its easy enough to test out. If someone seems to be messing up, you remove their sponsor status, and give them a chance to improve before making them a sponsor again. But I can see where your reservations lie.

Love it.

Implement it.

Asap.

I'm all for it and I do like the idea of giving the LHM more of a role. 

I don't think the new LHM features should be exclusive to the LHM only. CL and RHM should be able to see everything the LHM can and do it all if need be. I think it should follow a tier system. CL can see everything, RHM can see almost everything and everything the LHM can see. The LHM can see their features.

Other than that, I like it. The earning prowess in relation to the district is a very good idea.

I like it all but, I agree with some opinions that this shouldn't be exclusive only to the LHM. But imo crew leaders should also have access to everything within his headquarters, there are no closed doors for them.

I would also love seeing a financial department in each crew instead, where each crew has their own financial officer, who's to be a trusted person assigned by a crew leader to review and update the crew finances, also mass mail members and be a fund collector for the crew.

However, that person should have received their button to gain this level of trust.

(just a thought I felt like sharing but the idea is good overall, except for limiting access to LHM's only. That doesn't sound logic)

Let me just state firstly that since I am currently a CL my opinion on this matter may be biased just a bit.

The part of this that I do not like is point 3. You say these changes are to give a CL more control over their finances but it seems to me to do just the opposite, taking away control from the CL and giving it to the LHM. You would be effectively making this a position of absolute trust just as RHM is now. This is going to make it much harder for new players to work there way into leadership positions. I like where the LHM position is now. It's a nice stepping stone. There are a few added abilities but nothing so drastic as having all my crew's money funneled through their hands before I can even tell how much that is. In addition, there is a restriction on who I can make my RHM and LHM based on rank. I don't disagree with this restriction at all but now you are forcing me, if I'm to be getting any money that is, to put someone it that position that I do not trust enough for it. I don't trust easily. That's something that takes time and something that builds fairly well with someone in the LHM position in its current state. If this were to be implemented I would seriously consider moving my RHM to the LHM position and simply not have a RHM and I don't see that as being good for anyone. I'm around here enough to make that work but many are not. If you say I should already trust my LHM 100% then I would just simply eliminate the position from my organization because you can't force trust. My LHM is indeed third in command of my crew but their power can be laid out in a structure thread within the HQ and limited as I see fit. If this idea was in place you would, in a sense, be deciding how much power my number 3 has for me.

What I would actually rather see is a more customizable set of options for different abilities that RHM and LHM have now to suit the needs of each organization. For example, my RHM can read my mail. I wouldn't mind if my LHM could as well. I have someone in my crew who makes a nice earnings list and I wish i could just give him access to the figures. I wouldn't mind if the people that put my IA list together could see where my members are at all times. All in all I'd like to see more freedom given to the CL to run his or her crew in the way they see fit, not be further restricted and told exactly how it needs to be done.

I agree with you idea Chris, its a smart move and it will make the LHM role be wanted by all and not just so they look good. Having an important role like that in the family will make it truly wanted. 

Saying that I have to agree with Curtis and Archy aswell . The CL and RHM should be able to see what is going on as well yes LHM is the 3rd most important position in the family but like Latin said if you don't trust them then they shouldn't have control of all the family money

Curtis and Archy, allow me to try and deal with you both at the same time as they are similar concerns. I'm not sure of any other way to run it where the CL and RHM have equal access. That would mean 3 personals going out for every tribute sent up, and the possibility that work is duplicated.

For instance. Crew member A sends up a tribute of 250k. CL, RHM and LHM all get a Personal: Mar 06, 06:09:01 Your accountant has received a tribute payment of $250,000 from Crew member A.

The LHM, who is online, updates the Manage Crew screen, deposits the money in the Crew account, and goes to bed. 2 hours later the RHM comes online and sees the same message. However he didn't receive the 250k, so what does he do? Similarly, the CL comes online, and sees the same message but again hasn't received any money.

I'm not trying to curtail the CL or RHMs power, I'm taking nothing away from them in real terms, and if there is a need to replace the LHM because of illness or persoanl emergency, you can swap your LHM and RHM around, or temporarily promote someone to LHM to carry out the work. Likewise I'm not limiting access to the LHM, there is no limiting of information or access that is currently available. The LHM updates the Manage Crew page with the earnings, instead of the Servers doing it, the CL and RHM still have access to this page, and still have access to the crew bank. Archy, you suggested a crew finance department, a role that can be given to a trusted person, that's exactly what it is, except this trusted person is already a hand in your crew.

The reason for a certain amount of concealment is because I've learned that Squishy doesn't like anything to be all benefit, there has to be some kind of negative involved, otherwise the game would just become the 'Yay I win game'. The way it is now, an unscrupulous LHM could in theory steal money from the CL. If he is too greedy, he will probably be caught, but if he is careful, he could maybe steal a fair bit of cash from a large, high earning crew. If the CL and/or RHM have total transparency, this is no longer a possibility. After all, If I deposit 220k instead of 250k, my CL is going to come straight to me and ask where the other 30k is.


Latin

You say these changes are to give a CL more control over their finances but it seems to me to do just the opposite, taking away control from the CL and giving it to the LHM.

Not at all. At the moment you have no control over your finances except  the actual physical cash. How much money did your RHm earn last week? How much did your Best Sponsor earn Last month? Are your crew actually tributing their correct taxes or are you being ripped off at every turnaround? You can't honestly answer these questions, because you have nothing to base the answers off. You may be happy with your income, but you have no idea who is fucking you over. This proposes to give you some of that control back. Sure its giving the initial control to your LHM, but I was going for a balance of gameplay and realism to enhance an oft underused feature.

I understand your concerns over giving access to your cash to your LHM, but as you stated you should trust your LHM 100%. I can do more damage to Guevara's crew right now than I could with access to his bank. I could remove the gun of every one of his crew, and mail their locations to his enemies, ensuring the whole crew was wiped out in one fell swoop. Likewise, unless you plan to just leave your LHM to it, you will have final oversight of what is going into your account, if it doesn't look right, you remove your LHM. You say I'd be deciding what power your LHM has, but the game already does that based on what your LHM can and can't do. As for eliminating the Role, I know plenty of CLs who did in fact do just that, as they didn't have someone in their crew they could trust with it. However, I am in awe that you would put someone in as your LHM that you didn't already trust. That takes balls man.

Your suggestions are all fine and good, but they are not relevant to this discussion, however I would suggest that you make your own thread for them, I'd definitively give you my backing because I agree that you should be able to choose who can do what around your HQ.

 

I like this because it actually gives the left hand man a concrete reason for 'existing'.

Currently, my slanties are Chris_Vaughn and Dr_KennethNoisewater and, to be perfectly frank, there is no real distinction between them. I trust them both absolutely and I'm more than happy to have either of them in the RHM spot. Ultimately, the good Doctor occupies that spot most of the time simply because myself and Chris share similar online times so it makes sense for someone to monitor my mailbox in my absence. The bottom line though is that I'm happy to (and have) rotated them from time to time. I'd imagine the vast majority of CL's past and present could tell similar stories.

This would change all that. It forces me to make a real decision on who I have as my left hand man. It's no longer a matter of trust, it's a matter of efficiency and ability:

I trust Billy to be 100% honest but his organisation isn't the best. I don't trust Bob not to skim off the top but I know he'll do the job far better. Am I happy for Bob to take a cut knowing that I'll gain more from him being in the role?

Do I appoint a LHM who's a hard-nosed prick and will chase down the individuals who he thinks are taking the piss? Or do I appoint a nice guy figure who will pass the information on to my RHM who will act as the internal enforcer?

These are just some of the considerations that immediately occurred to me, and I like it.

I actually do like the idea that this is solely the remit of the LHM, too. If we wanted to look at the way things actually were in the mob, most Leaders would deliberately make sure they didn't know the specifics; they delegated the duty entirely to someone else so that if they did get pinched, they'd be (to a certain extent) insulated from the long arm of the law.

This suggestion has the good Doctor's Official Seal of Approval.