I don't remember telling you to not voice your opinion, Barry. Just that you have very little legitimacy talking about the intimacy of my father's relationship with others in Bella Vista. I'm out here pitching this publicly so I can get people's opinions, that's generally what street speeches are for. You gave yours and I appeciate the input, just because I don't agree with it doesn't mean you should refrain from telling people it.

You speak about your bloodline's loyalty like they have never divulged off the straight and narrow... wasn't your bloodline one of the main instigators behind the takedown of Roman and Premeir?

I'm not saying you actually believe everything that you say, just that you're known to 'tow the party line' in public, regardless of your actual opinion of people or situations.

ZeQ while I can understand your father's position and subsequent suicide, I fail to see how there was any honour in this for him. He knew from the outset that a ruling had been made that if one 303 fucks up they would all have to go, your father knew this in no uncertain terms. It was no secret to them either. There was a purpose behind the ruling, to put an end to harassment of certain players by members of this group. Why couldn't or didn't they put pressure on the rogue elements in their circle and ask them to stop these actions? If they had distanced themselves from those who can't seem to let shit go, why not make a more public declaration of such?

Your father and I both knew where we stood on this issue. It was a risk and a position we were both willing to try, which ultimately failed. I asked him to be my right hand man as our ties go back a few generations and I felt safe in his hands. Obviously it was naive of me to think he would put the district before all else. You see, your father wasn't the only one who feels he has lost something in all of this.

Does he think that it was an easy thing for me to perform? To have to kill two people who undoubtedly worked hard for me and who I also hoped could find a way out of the legacies they wrought on this world in the not to distant past? Have they not had ample time and opportunity to make it clear to the community that they don't agree with this behaviour and will find a way to help stamp it out? While they neglect to condemn this they will continue to be seen as this group. Should I have thrown away my alliances with the fine men and women of Philly and New York to try save but a few whose own action or inaction helped to led them to this juncture?

I wasn't about to do that as well your father knew. It's called loyalty. It stands true even when you have to make some ugly decisions. Your father worked hard for me and our district, I would never deny that but while your father may feel that he was righteous in his decision to put that gun to his head, it showed me on no uncertain terms where his true loyalty lay and it was not with the district of Bella Vista. GRHS

I find it hilarious that you come out here and speak of loyalty to your district Betty, when you promised certain people that if they behaved you would be there for them and last night we all witnessed exactly how much you stand up for your members.

You should hang your head in shame for letting down those who put their trust in you to protect them. You opened the door and welcomed in the wolves without so much as an apology.

What you and your peers did last night was just as bad as anything the 303 did, yet somehow you think you're righteous for doing it?

Some hypocritical morals right there.

I have not read every comment here so I apologize if I am repeating a few things in what I say here but this is just my opinion on the entire thing really. 

First of all, things change in this world, the way you do things, it use to be that during war people would shoot anybody involved in that war, and if you were not involved you were usually safe minus some confusion at times of course. That has changed a lot in the past couple of months, when war comes nobody is safe, it is at this point and this showing of late that even if you are not involved in war it is a good idea to get yourself protected regardless.

Now on to the actual question, I do not know if what Father_TeQ did was right or wrong, on one hand he lived up to his promise, on another hand he abandoned his district. I feel like TeQ made a bold choice and stuck to his promises and stuck by the people who were part of his district, if he had retired due to the death of somebody outside of that district then I may have some concerns, but he stood by a member who from what I have read did everything in his power to get over the ways of his past and prove he was loyal to Bella Vista and will help them at every turn. 

As for the killing of RTwo, It is a really hard death to understand the true reasons behind it, yes it could have been another bloodline death, but it also could have been that the only person he had left to help him with locals just happened to be the one where RTwo was sitting at, it presents a difficult task to figure out the true reasons, I do not necessarily agree with killing everyone that is associated with that group due to the death, but they were warned at one point in time and due to that warning it should have been a time where Daen said find me another target even if that death was a good notch on his finishing gun.

This is just my two cents really, I respected Father_TeQ a lot and I can say I have no idea what I would have done given that choice or being put in that position. It is a tough one if I think about it and losing the people that we lost last night was a blow to Philadelphia but I know that under BlackBetty's leadership they will come right back and rebuild again.

I didn't claim to know the intimacy of Father_TeQ's relationship with others in Bella Vista, I just made observations based upon what I have seen and the information you presented to us. That was and still is how I view the matter.

I'm actually not speaking about my bloodline at all (because if you've listened to me in the past you'll know I don't believe in the concept at all), other than a reference to redemption being possible, just who Barry is and what he believes in. 

However, as I don't want it to seem like I'm ducking your question; yes Chuckle played a part in removing Roman, and by association Premeir, a long time ago. Chuckle didn't feel like he was disloyal, because his Don was SexyBeast and that was the family he served for his entire life. Incidentally, if Father_TeQ had acted similarly, I would have no issue with his actions because that would have been for the betterment of his family. 

I must also reiterate the point that Daenerys also shot RoryRourke just over an hour before shooting RTwoDoubleDTwo as everyone seems to skip over that fact.

Rory had no ties one way or another to the 303... he was a Godmother's LH, so a viable target to Daenerys in their position, just as RTwo was.

How was he 'bloodlining' by shooting Rory? Anyone able to answer that one?

Also, Barry... my fathers position on Azingy was made clear well in advance, so to go the direction Chuckle did was not possible.

He had 3 choices...

1) Shoot. Get some measure of revenge

2) Retire. Get my bloodline out of Philly

3) Go bold in LA. No thanks.

Lesser of three evils in most people's eyes I think most people could agree.

Daenerys thought everything would be dandy for all her current/former chums after shooting RTwoDoubleDTwo? Really?

i still dont see why they was all killed for this it was a WAR you shoot anyone if your going to die well i would anyway but had this of been not dureing a war fair play but to kill them all because of that shot on rtwo DURING A WAR. 

I rest my case.

Can anyone tell me why RTwo was not pro'd during a war?

If you don't want to get shot get a pro, the first rule on how not to die. As far as I see it, he was shot for his incompetence to get himself safe when people are dying left and right.

RTwo was asleep during the war

[OOC Last Active: Apr 02, '15 12:36]

Note: I hate to step up to you on this one ZeQ, but you're in the wrong.

To set a few things straight: 

1. You are biased because one of the people that died was a protegee of yours.

2. Your line was not around for the 303 era; You, thus, have no basis for a point of reference. However, you have been making Roman/Prem era references all over, so I can tell you, as someone who was banned from almost all the cities during that time way long ago, it was similar to that, less structured, more salt, trolling, and a lot of the exact bullying idiocy that people do not like from *cough* ehM ehM *cough* You know how bad things can get over there, so I am certain I don't need to elaborate on what I mean. And yes, Barry lead that glorious barbarian horde, but it was a different situation. Roman was a mature tyrant, in some ways. 303 was a collective with a few adolescent trolls, which is why they have such a tarnished name. There was honor to some of them, but in the end, being a part of a collective that acted like that, made them all culpable. I talked heavily about time healing things elsewhere in the streets, but damn you're still making Roman era references four years later, over one thing. Roman had how many strikes against him? I actually admire some of the tactics Roman used. There was structure to be admired. Of course, I admire Barry's horde's strategy far more for sacking a tyrant, but this is not the same world it was. We are in a different community and a new world. That needs to be considered in this.

3. The rules regarding handling this group have been made clear for a long time now, clear to both sides, and were followed through with yesterday. https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/525491#96342285

It is an unfortunate situation because I cared about several of those people who were executed. Several people were innocent yesterday, but they are not all true converts yet. It is a fact that they have not disbanded, not as a collectively acting group. They're all friends though, which is why it's an unfortunate situation and I personally have no solution for them, even if I do feel badly for some of them. Until 303 actually disbands, they really are just threats to themselves, even if just one screws up.

On that note of screwing up, Daenerys probably thought it was a good shot to take in Daenerys' situation. Daenerys probably did not realize the gravity of Daenerys' shot. Daenerys was fully aware of who Daenerys was taking that shot at though, and rattled the hornets nest. Nonetheless, RIP Daenerys, goat of goats. 

If I'm not mistaken, the rule was put in place really so that 303 could police itself, so we wouldn't have to. So that they wouldn't rogue or try underground movements. The shot probably was not thought over too well, and who knows if other 303 was even consulted on it. It's a shame.  I'd like to say I'd want to see the rule reversed in the near future because I'll say it... It's cruel in certain cases, but not unusual and it all falls on how they move forward.

3. People can say you turned your back on hooves, and they're right. At the end of the day though, Philadelphia is better off any which way it's stated without you there in Bella Vista if you weren't loyal to it. BlackBetty might have had her own reservations, but the decision was in fact made by her. She is no toy, and you did not stand by her or her actions. She does not roll over! She tips though! But only physically, not metaphorically or morally! Your father put someone ahead of his Godfather and your city; there is no one that should go before them. He was a Right Hand; Right Hand betrayal is bad, right? Ask Azingy about that. God knows he tried to get someone killed for it as vengeance enough times, even if they had their own reasons which were far more substantiated than what you've laid out here. 

I've always admired your use of dramatics and histrionics when it seemed selfless. This is proving to be far from selfless though. It's selfish, and I'm realizing that this isn't so different than your ancestor's last "standing up for a cause" death which ended up destroying not only your ancestor's life, but it hurt the people under them. I'm pretty sure the ancestor before that was protesting something too... at least keeping his bodyguards so poorly kept, despite pleas, Ghandi hunger-strike style. The novelty is wearing thin. The truth is: if history hasn't proven it, your ancestry's fall-on-sword-for-a-cause, seems to be simply the sake of placating the need for a sense of self righteousness in you. It doesn't cause any change in reality. You get to come here to trash people and rant about a situation. I get the short term value in that, but it makes you look like you're really not all that selfless, and you really crossed a line here, shaming BlackBetty, and your father's city.

This issue, of them all being killed if one fucked up, was clean cut and advertised for the past few months. The fact your father couldn't accept that is sad, blinded by one friendship and bullheaded on the issue. There's nothing wrong with a friendship. Nothing about your friendship with Azingy was hurt in his dying, but you hurt several others in the process just because you disagreed. Azingy probably accepted his fate as a possibility down the line more than you did. 

4.  I see this speech of yours as an affront to Philadelphia, and more importantly, your supposed friend, on top of her being your father's Godfather, BlackBetty. This isn't you getting pissed at a godly action. This is you getting menstrual because you can't control your friend(s), and the situation around you. 

I like you a lot, so I'm sorry for my tone being so honest and forward and blunt, but I also like BlackBetty and I stand by Philadelphia and the rest of the cities' leadership's position on this, mainly because of how much warning was given regarding a situation like this occurring. That is why I am replying here.

BlackBetty didn't deserve this from you, and this cause you're trying to fight is far from noble in nature. It is far too self righteous to be, and far too treasonous on several levels, even if it's out of loyalty to one person. The scale tips massively too far one way.

I dislike this killing a group of friends over someone shooting someone in a war? So does freelancer's bloodline now need to baby fed just cause the mean 303 went and killed him? Sorry but that's ridiculous, you don't care about why he did it say it for what is was you guys were looking for an excuse which is fine but call it what it is man. 

The fact that the new RHM to BlackBetty,  Rane...who was so vehemently trying to 'stick it to me' here, was struck down by the Gods and Betty taken away from our world for a while gives me all the justification I need for my father leaving Bella Vista.

Rotten to the core.

I'd like to comment on this notion of killing the best target you can find regardless of their involvement in your demise. It is deplorable and frankly I'm surprised that so many people are defending it. To everyone who asks "Who wouldn't have taken that shot?" I answer, Me. And I expect the same from everyone who works for me. You kill your attackers or you kill no one. What honor is there in killing someone on the sidelines? 

About a month ago a Godmother at war in Chicago decided to attack someone from Philly. Philly was not a part of that war up to that point, but since that individual decided to take "the juiciest shot they could find" she ended up damning her entire district top to bottom. Many people were killed that did not need to die all because of that action. Please people, stop thinking that your actions will not affect anyone besides yourself. It has been clearly demonstrated that they will. 

To all of those who believe they were working in the right direction and did not deserve to die, get back on the horse and try again. As far as the question raised in the coffee shops, time is what you need. Memories and relationships do not fade this quickly. As time goes on you will be associated less and less with this forsaken group. Keep proving your loyalty to your leaders and show them that you follow them and not this group.

ZeQ, you have clearly shown that your loyalty to your friends is greater than to your Godmother. That is exactly what we are trying to move away from. Your father is no martyr. If anything he's made it worse for those he died for. I will say to your credit though that yes it could have been handled worse and I'm glad that he did not turn his gun on friends and family. At the very best though this is a middle ground between right and wrong.

Latin, my loyalty to my friends? As you clearly are unable to read previous comments, I will repeat myself with what I said to Barry.

The whole heart was ripped out of Bella Vista, Azingy was the only person I knew from our bloodlines histories... do you not see the others who died from Bella Vista that fateful night? Are they meaningless? Of course they were not, they were hard working members of Bella Vista who gave a hell of a lot to the district.

I find it quite arrogant of you to suggest that only the Azingy decision effected my own. I'm sure you don't think of your own family as meaningless. If you believed they had done no wrong, as has been stated by numerous people, would you be happy to see them thrown to the wolves? I think fucking not, sunshine.

If I recall, R2 was a Philadelphia auth into Las Vegas. Therefor, Philadelphia affiliated. When New York and Philadelphia attacked collectively against The Loop, that includes everything that has spawned from them is therefor included as a collective, which is exactly what you're doing to those who died.

Do I think he should have died? No, not at all. He personally was not involved, but his former district, the one who authed him was. That makes him involved to an extent, even if he didn't know.

As for Latin? My father was on the rightest track he could be on. He dropped communication with many of those "Ruffians" that would do silly things. He sent in honest shot reports to which he could have easily lied on. He was an active family man, being one of the most active sponsors for Bella Vista, and one who was quite generous with money and knowledge.

Does that mean anything? I suppose not. He was playing nice because he was wanted to prove he was redeemed, much to his dismay, his own Godmother sent Rane to murder him when someone he was once affiliated with in a past life did something that he didn't even know about whilst sleeping.

Get back on the horse? What horse do I get back on? I wouldn't ever join anyone who would murder their members for something out of their control while they sleep. Absolutely pathetic honestly, and this is coming from me.

ZeQ did what he thought was best. Betty knew the deal and still went with it knowing what would happen if it ever came to be. My father was told by Betty he would be safe, to which he later found out when he awoke, to be a lie. To have such a friend of my bloodline actively lie to me about it over something like this.. Heh.

You're all worse than we'll ever be.

Also, what about my father's own Godmothers loyalty?

The Azingy situation was made clear before Azingy ever joined Bella Vista. Ms Betty said and I quote "If you behave here, I will keep you safe."

Why is this oath not in question? What about the promises she made my father that Azingy and others would be given a chance if they behaved?

Why is it my fathers loyalty to the district in question? He pumped in over $90 million (and 100 credits in gifts and giveaways) into building Bella Vista. He gave both auths $20 million each upon setup to help with costs, even after being turned down for auth himself on the basis of Azingy being his RH. He donated to his Godmother whenever she was short on cash and handed out over $30 million between RoryRourke, Azingy and Rane to get them a decent amount of protection. He was also a big advocate of the streets to help the family out when the durdens visit our shores. My father worked fucking HARD for Bella Vista and I seriously doubt it would be in such a strong position without him.

When Betty broke the promises she'd made to him and others under her protection. Trust, honour and loyalty go BOTH ways and my father, along with others felt like they got absolutely none from BlackBetty. They were LIED to.

To all of those who believe they were working in the right direction and did not deserve to die, get back on the horse and try again. As far as the question raised in the coffee shops, time is what you need. Memories and relationships do not fade this quickly. As time goes on you will be associated less and less with this forsaken group. Keep proving your loyalty to your leaders and show them that you follow them and not this group.

This...

If a God is watching over us, is there a chance of clarification here?

That statement sounds like a case of bloodlining to me. Because it has been months since some of the bloodlines who died the other night have done anything and good ol' Latin here is openly admitting it and just telling them to 'get back on the horse'.