My loyalty lies Blackbeard and the Queen Anne's Revenge. I am his loyal servant and associate, where he goes, I follow. This is my bond, my word, and what makes me a man. If he tells me we're loyal to Godmother BlackBetty until the end, then thats how it shall be. A man stands beside his boss, and falls in line when his boss does something.

Louis smiles. 

"Italian expression my friend, refers to an act of disrespect."

Mr. Polo sat back and watched cautiously. This was not an easy topic to discuss in the open and given his history with bringing up topics like this, he felt it best to wait for an ample time to speak. He too was interested in seeing an opinion from one of the leaders or Godfathers/Godmothers, However...


Polo rose in his chair, and looked toward Fips.

"I think it really comes down to personal goals and ambition," Polo stated, placing his hand over his chest, essentially over his heart. "I'd like to believe that everyone is smart in their own way, whether that intelligence comes history books or from the streets. In that regard I feel that people are smart enough to make choices based on their own goals."

Polo took a moment to look around the room. "We all say we have loyalty to our cities, Godfathers, and to our leaders, but in the end I believe that the first person we have loyalty to is...ourselves." Polo stops himself, "-And that's not a bad thing. Allow me to explain."

Polo paces the room, while he makes his argument.

"Each and every one of us, I feel, want to live a long and prosperous life. In that vein, we want to ensure our longevity through the best choices possible, and trust me when I say this; Every choice you make in this life will have rewards and consequences. Whether you know that now or not, that fact will come into play at some point in your life. So if we go off that logic, making choices to follow specific Leaders, Godfathers, and influential figures should all have rewards and consequences."

Polo raised his hand, and lifted a single finger, "But, like I stated earlier, I believe that we are smart. Thus if we know that by committing ourselves to certain Leaders, Godfathers and Influential figures will have Rewards and Consequences, and if we are all smart enough to recognize it, all it really comes down to is..."

Polo closes his hand, and puts it behind his back. He smiles.

"Who garners the best rewards, while providing the smallest consequences."

Polo walks back to his chair. He takes a seat and turns his attention, once more, towards Fips. "Loyalty can be swayed by many factors, but in the end it comes down to who is less likely to fuck us over. If my Crew leader is less likely to use me as fodder in his goals, compared to the Godfather, then by all means I will go with the Leader first.... And vice versa."

If anything Mr. Polo wanted to spark an even more in-depth conversation about this. 
 

Ultimately, your Godfather is your family head and I think a lot of people forget this. A crew leader is an extension of the Godfather and while many of the associates will most likely have more interaction with their leader and thus more respect and loyalty, in my opinion the higher ranks should be well known to the Godfather and work as part of an upper echleon/inner circle as they are integrated into "the family". For the fact that your family starts with your Godfather your loyalty should always remain with them, as should your leaders. 

And after all, it was the leader, to whom he swore loyalty, when he was promoted to Made Man.

I think it works differently in different places, as this isn't always the case. A lot of the time you are swearing loyalty to your family and at times you are only given the nod to be promoted via your Godfather's say so.

Of course, the way this is handled may change where a person's loyalty lies, but I still believe you should remain loyal to your Godfather.

My loyalty rests simply with my leader and upper structure.  I hope and believe generally they would be doing anything in my best interests for my survival and know i play a part in their survival.

I do believe the loyalty can change on decisions, as if tyrion decided tommorow everyone who doesn't have size 14 feet and ginger hair had to die, i would look at him a bit strangely as i attempt to strap him down and feed him wine to calm the stresses of the day,  I may also parade hookers into him in hope the madness surpasses.

I believe now and again people make stupid decisions that go against everything an organisation, district or alliance stand for, and it erodes such groups and slowly slowly the fragmentation occurs to a point where everyone is so distant they are open to attack.

As much as i would like to say i am loyal to my crewleader over my godfather i would also have to say i am as loyal to my crewmembers to a degree to as everythings a team effort and looking out for the best for everyone is sometimes most important. 

Quill found a spot on the street where he could stand and listen to what the man others were calling Fips had to say. It was an interesting topic indeed. Quill flicked the cigarette he had been smoking into the gutter and cleared his throat.

Loyalty is a tricky thing. Much like a woman.

Quill gave himself a small chuckle, the corner of his mouth pulled into a small smile. 

How does one gain loyalty? Talks? Gifts? Compliments? Sure, sure, all those things can help towards the common goal of loyalty, but doesn't it come down to how one manages things? If you manage a woman correctly she'll be less tricky to handle. If I stuck my gal up in the biggest mansion in town, gave her no worries about money and adored her with all the free time I had she wouldn't have any reason to be disloyal to me. I wouldn't have to worry about her polite smiles at the milk man. 

<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">But! There is still a chance that even if I gave my doll the world she could still sneak around behind my back because woman are tricky things like loyalty. What's my point here? It's been brought up that Godfather's don't seek out every single person in their </font>district<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)"> and get to know them which somehow means that members of the Godfather's empire should not be loyal to him or her. That really isn't the Godfather's job and honestly I'd bet he'd be wasting his time. You can't please everyone and adoring everyone with any free time would just be costly to other business a Godfather must present himself to. That's a lot of people to manage and if it were the Godfather's job, then what would be the point of a crew leader? There is a structure and a chain of command for a reason. Better management. </font>With that being said, I'm going to have to disagree with you Ryssa. Just because a Godfather doesn't send you flowers and take you out for coffee does not mean you shouldn't give some of your loyalty to him or her. 

<font color="rgba(0, 0, 0, 0)">I don't think one should give a certain percentage of their loyalty to their crew leader and their Godfather. Or more to one than the other. Loyalty should just be there. That's why it's easy for so many to come to this discussion and simply announce that they are 100% loyal to whoever they have joined up with, gotten their button from, pledged their life to. Giving your loyalty to your crew leader you are giving your loyalty to your Godfather at the same time. It's </font>instantaneous. You are loyal to your crew leader, your crew leader is loyal to the Godfather they work for and so you are loyal to your Godfather. 

Decides to interject again for a brief comment.

So then you're are stating if the Godfather is wrong then EVERYONE under that Godfather is responsible as well.  I have seen GF's taken out and every CL underneath taken out except for one.  So with your statement of loyalty to that GF then everyone under him/her is held responsible for that GF's actions as well.

Simply put from your input on loyalty to a GF if we are loyal to our CL then we should be loyal to that GF. and well if the GF goes then well "blood in blood out" and everyone should follow with that GF that is made or up.  And it shouldn't be a difficult job for a GF to say "Hey congratulations on your button"  In fact, hell it should be a requirement! I sure as hell would want to know who's being made/promoted after made, the reasons for the promotion, what he/she brings with that promotion, I want to know about the people.  That's a good GF knowing who's who and who could be a potential threat.  But that's just me, maybe GF's would have people turn on them less.  Maybe it would bring less sleeping GF's as well.

Regardless of that being said my loyalties lie with the person I interact with the most, "A man is only as good as with the people he trusts, if you don't trust the people you work with you're as good as dead".

Sips a bit of rum and heads off chuckling.

Ryssa chuckles as she listens about how women are so changeable. She could swear men forget they are just the same.

You can disagree with me all you would like. My loyalty is to my leader. If my leader is loyal to their Godfather then I think there is nothing to worry about. As far as gifts and compliments go, give me a break. I wouldn't trust those anymore than I could trust a snake not to bite me when I kick it.

However, I still maintain that blind loyalty to someone that doesn't acknowledge your existence at the very least is bad. Blind anything is bad. Know what you are getting yourself into before you make a commitment.

So if one day Tyrion takes the Godfather role in Manhattan and you are left with a new leader who spends more time with you, you will pledge your loyalty to your leader if Tyrion decided that he should be removed? Really?

Your Godfather is your family head, your crew leader is an extension of that family. If people are turning on their Godfathers from within the extended crews it's because the leader hasn't done a good enough job of reinforcing the importance of their Godfather and what he represents for the family.

However much sense this really makes, Like I said my loyalty lies with the one who really gives a damn in my city.  If for some reason I didn't follow Tyrion with him if he made GF then so be it.  My loyalty still lies with Tyrion because as stated MULTIPLE TIMES "I built a foundations WITH TYRION, and a trust WITH TYRION".  However if I ended up with a NEW LEADER and I was a MADE-MAN I would expect to fall with that leader.

Shall I do more BIG WORDS for you to COMPREHEND? Tyrion is by far one of the most ACTIVE and well thought out people I know, He acknowledges people in his crew accomplishments and actively tries to talk to everyone.  If for some magical reason he made an un-calculated judgement that led to war you better be damn sure I'm following him even if it was a wrong choice, Made-Man or not. 

That being said on numerous times, my loyalty lies with the ones I have worked with, so my loyalty follows Tyrion.  And if you think I haven't made comments before regarding GF's maybe you should go back EARLIER in the journal.  Where I state I built relationships with late GF Archy and my father built relationship with Godmother Betty.  So yea maybe you should do a bit more READING before you call someone out.

Laughs again and summons his pet wolf that has a greater attention span

I'm not sure if you know, but you kept shouting out at random points of your speech there my dear chap. Anywho...

"Regardless of that being said my loyalties lie with the person I interact with the most" Those were your words, not "whoever gives a damn about my city". I assume all who lead give a damn about the city they lead in you silly Sally, although opinions at times may differ on how best to serve a city no doubt.

Thank you for brown nosing Tyrion long enough for us to realise just how spectacular he is, however I'm not questioning your loyalty to Tyrion, I'm questioning your loyalty to Tyrion within the scenario I set, especially given the statement you made. I'll repeat it again for you "Regardless of that being said my loyalties lie with the person I interact with the most". So again, if Tyrion moved on to Godfather and you were left with a new leader (despite having these amazing foundations with Tyrion), that you found you spent plenty of "quality time" with and was possibly willing to brown nose just as much, would your loyalties then change? Would you not acknowledge that Tyrion is actually your Family head and not the new leader?

You also stated that you are loyal to the ones you've worked with, if push comes to shove though, who will you pick? Those who you interact more with, or someone you have worked with previously?

I don't care who you've built relationships with in the past, how is that relevant? Or are you just trying to name drop?

What am I to read you cretin? We're all talking here.

Aniki rolls his eyes while talking to an associate next to him.

Problem with these Wise Guys is they think they're all wise guys. Fucking morons.

Funny thing is I asked to stay as a Wise-Guy to enjoy some other aspects of the game that I have never been privileged to. (OOC)

On a higher note if Tyrion was made GF I would continue to stay in contact with him because he's easily approachable, and could recommend ANYONE from another district to even speak with him.  That can't be said for many others sadly, and for brown nosing?  Nah not my thing I do hear though you are quite fond of others asses.  So that being said if I did get a new leader I would try and get to know that leader or hell I may already know that leader enough, due to being a people person.

Although I can't say I know much of you Aniki to give a flying fuck, regardless of your title or not to me you're more of the cretin coming from someone in PH its bad to see trash like this in today's era.  And I never said I built relationships in the past except with the exception of late GF Archy I stated my father has and I follow in my fathers footsteps.  But that being said if Tyrion made GF my loyalties would follow him as well as my new leader, because I already built a trust with Tyrion.  I also doubt Tyrion will turn into some miserable imp and ignore what he's already built, unless thats how you think a GF should be?

Nudges his associate next to him and hands him the rum.

Made-Man these days huh? never know loyalties or really why they earned that button huh?

Laughs and yanks the rum back.

"But that being said if Tyrion made GF my loyalties would follow him as well as my new leader, because I already built a trust with Tyrion."

A contradiction from previous comments, no? The scenario was if Tyrion decided to take out your leader, then what? Try to keep up little fella, it's not that difficult to COMPREHEND.

Ah, I won't go through what I expect a Godfather to be, that can be for another discussion if you like.

Sadly, I know enough about you to know that you have carried the title idiot for several generations. I guess the apple never falls far from the tree.

A contradiction from previous comments, no? The scenario was if Tyrion decided to take out your leader, then what? Try to keep up little fella, it's not that difficult to COMPREHEND.

 Obviously it is difficult for you to comprehend.

However much sense this really makes, Like I said my loyalty lies with the one who really gives a damn in my city.  If for some reason I didn't follow Tyrion with him if he made GF then so be it.  My loyalty still lies with Tyrion because as stated MULTIPLE TIMES "I built a foundations WITH TYRION, and a trust WITH TYRION".  However if I ended up with a NEW LEADER and I was a MADE-MAN I would expect to fall with that leader.

My statement from earlier, idiot.

Already clearly stated if that new leader fell regardless of Tyrions hand or another GF I still go down with that leader.

My point proven on your ignorance good day kid. 

...but you're just an Unwise Guy right now.

What amuses me is the fact that you have chosen to publicly dismiss loyalty to a Godfather. If in the instance that Tyrion does become Godfather and decides to leave you with the new leader, you have made it clear where your loyalty now lies. If the leader's attacked you will be loyal to that leader and go down on with him. To me what you're saying if it were to transpire is the following:

If Tyrion asked for your assistance, you'd decline.

If Tyrion asked you to shoot people who were attempting to harm him, you'd decline.

If Tyrion asked you to leave and join him, you'd decline.

I think a lot of people miss the concept of what a family is, your family isn't the 40 men you share your headquarters with, it's the entire district and your family head is the Godfather/Acting Godfather. Your leader is that Godfather's servant, so in extension to that you should also be servants of your family head.

I really don't get how you stand with such blind loyalty Aniki. It is kind of amusing to watch the arguments. Although I see your point.

I have one to make, does it really matter? I mean if the leader is loyal to the Godfather in the first place then it will not matter in the long run.

If the leader is a douchebag and turns on his Godfather, that becomes tricky I suppose. Although that leaves the question of why that Godfather trusted them and so many other questions to follow.

The question was what if, I responded with my view. It does matter as it's interesting to see what people's concept of family is and how they choose their loyalties.

A crew is sometimes split into sub crews yet if your Capo interacts with you more, then your loyalty would be stronger to them than your crew leader? That concept makes no sense to me.

Personally my line has never been a fan of sub crews. I never got the point of splitting a family up so much that someones loyalty may be stronger to someone that is not the leader.

I do see your points of view. I suppose we just see things differently in this case.

I am not saying people should be disloyal to a Godfather. But loyalty is a far stretch for someone who views you as not worth interacting with. It is the people that make the family great. Not always the bold and italic suits. They are a minority. So if you aren't interacting with them then what could you possibly expect? I should hope not loyalty.

Some respect based on rank? I suppose.  The concept of blind loyalty has never made sense to me personally though.