True, there are no rules. But is there any real value to sharing opinions without debate?

True, there are no rules. But is there any real value to sharing opinions without debate? Sidere

I would say there is, but not as much. I know we can look at some philosophers that will inform us to argue out the truth among each other and that being as fine as it is, i think with we must also delve into the individuals motives. To me it seems as though Martii was generally interested in allowing the younger generation of this thing of ours to rise up and speak. To give them more a chance to think for themselves without agreeing with him because he is one of the twenty three leaders in this thing of ours.

When i mean not as much, i specifically mean that it is due to the fact that we are usually able to understand things with more clarity when people are able to discuss them and say what they think. This gives others a unique perspective from the core beliefs to another. However, often times we will see 'Debates' turn more into a pride issue where people are just trying to 'win' a street debate. Personally, i find no importance in any debate or argument. If it does nothing to better this community than i don't want any part of it. 

What i enjoy about you Sidere, is that you have done the same exact thing. You posed the same question and inquired him to answer as he has inquired us. Granted, he doesn't have to, nor does anyone else have to say what they think, but the very fact that we want more and wont settle for the minimum is telling the world that this life of ours is starting to make a switch back to the days where information was appropriately given out. 

I have to say i am with a lot of people, you joined a crew, district, city, they protected, nurtured, ranked you even if as an associate, is down to you to return the favour in time.  

A family is not somewhere just to lay your head is an opportunity to build and develop and the values to protect it should be etched in each day.  We all come with various skills, info, stealth, wack, defence and makes us useful with different areas as a war comes.  Even as Unsponsored individuals we have a chance to rebuild and strike back an attacker, show them our pride, show them we won't just fall and die.   Everyone has a part to play when the shit hits the fan, and to think how quick many run to the very people slaughtering their brothers and sisters as seen recently sickens me.

Once upon a time i would probably say, associates aren't members of the family, they should find new homes but the more i watch how effective and how old some associates get, i know how much difference they could make.

The only reason in my mind to run, is if there is a planned counterattack and you holding that shot, could make a difference.

And possibly when your Godfather kills your leader. Then, I think, you should relocate to one of the other crews in the district. All depends on who your loyalty lies with of course.

Misti looks befuddled.

"Jump ship? I don't think so.  All that would do is prolong the inevitable, and tarnish a reputation in the process.  I made an oath and here in this thing of ours we live by our word.  If we're at war and I have the choice to jump ship to save myself , or take a shot at someone and do some damage - I most certainly am going to do that for my family.  Moreover, how does someone protect a traitor?  If someone is to jump ship once, I would think that's a precursor to show that they will do it again. Who wants someone in their crew that displays disloyalty?"

You fight to the last drop of blood in your body, or until a superior says stop.  If there are no superiors left, then  you go out and do what you can to fight against those that brought your family/city to it's knees.  Once you die and one of your children takes your place, they don't have to take up your mantle, they haven't made the same oaths.  

Sometimes you make it through a skirmish untouched, or at least physically untouched.  But is your heart unbroken?  Don't the tears you shed for all those who died etch themselves into your soul?  How about the sleep you lose trying to reconcile with God why you lived and those around you died?  What about the guilt that eats at you? The feelings that gnaw at your heart whenever you want to talk to a friend or family member and you're struck with the realisation that they are dead and you survived.  Is that really survival? 

Unless you managed to live along side other sodatos from your district and you soldier onward to redeem or revenge your fallen family, there is no reason to keep breathing. 

I speak from what little experience I have. As a member of your family, the one you swore an oath to, you owe it to them and yourself to fight till there's no fight left in you. If your leader goes down, you turn to your godfather or godmother and take orders from them. You fight until you die and you stay loyal to your city and your family and at the end of the day, like Lillian said, if you're the last man standing you don't betray your family or your oath but you go out with your boots on in the knowledge that you swore undying fealty to your leader and your city. 

Also, it's pretty disappointing that a (fresh) leader doesn't have an opinion or stand on this issue himself.

Madara offers the disappointed Sidere a cookie to cheer them up

I personally find it refreshing that someone, regardless of their position is offering a topic/question for debate and discussion without giving the answer to their own question. I find far too often questions are rhetorical statements to spring board someone's opinion on the matter.

Now. I have listened to everyone who has had something to say. Whilst I agree with many points put forward, I do disagree with some.

The idea that anyone, including associates must be loyal regardless of why they're now involved in a conflict, just because their city/district/sponsor stopped others from shooting them is wrong.

In my opinion and associate is just that. associated. not married to, not pledged brothers or business partners.

However, showing you are willing to go down fighting for your associated sponsor and their family, is a great sign that you should be made more than just a humble associate.

However without the baptism of water forming the emotional bond and the fire of battle solidifying your loyalty, it can be a dangerous idea to think that just because you allowed someone to associate with you that they will give up their short lived life to protect you and yours.

Once you are a made member. Then, the family is what is important so if you must give up your life for the greater good, there should be no hesitation or argument.

Madara nibbles on a cookie and waits to hear more to decide if his opinion is subject to change on this matter.

"Hey Madara can I get a cookie. Thanks"

Thanks for the cookie!

I can sympathize with your view, but I do not agree. People would still have their own opinion, regardless of the original speaker sharing his own. I feel that someone who (tries to) start any meaningful debate should state their own opinion on the subject too. Especially a leader.

Madara reluctantly obliges

*sighs* Oookaaayy...

Gollum steals the cookie from madara and runs up the street.

PRECIOUS!!! ITS MINES! ITS FINALLY MINE!

As he continues to run he notices that the cookie is not his 'birthday gift' his prized possession that he deeply wanted. It was infact just a cookie. Why madara had a box of cookies was beyond him but Gollum was disgusted at the fact that it was not the precious. He has just grown so disillusioned that he sees the ring everywhere now. Almost every circular object he sees turns to be 'the precious' in his eyes.

TLWolf thinks that we will all die one day, so better die like MEN.

"In my past, I have heard the stories of my ancestors. Never once did they run from a fight. When their backs were against the wall and their family was falling all around them, my family line stood tall and took what was coming to them but not before firing off a shot or two at their enemies.

You never run. Stand your ground and sink with the ship no matter what."