Otiag, you're asking to be babied though. We have are warning already, but you want it changed because you don't feel the need as a leader to read before making a decision. Before making any major decision like purchasing an HQ, or going to any other contract I suggest you read everything before you hit confirm and/or sign your name.

I'm really trying my best to not take this completely out of game but for heavens sake, this is like how way too many people are in the real world as well. Oh I made a mistake because I didn't do my part and read now I want the government to make laws so this doesn't happen again. It's just getting ridiculous. We need to learn to be responsible whether it be in a game or in our real lives. Nobody can be blamed for our choices other than ourselves. There, sorry I took it completely out of game but it fit. 

Making this bold for you BobbyMundson. I admit I made a mistake, that is not what this thread is about. Nor is it about me wanting Izzy to fix my account. I accept my mistake and intend to live with it.

Now that we are past that point, hopefully. I still do not see a reason for the game to regulate this at all, Let he leaders regulate it, keep your hands off philosophy here as you do with almost every other aspect of the game. There are things that are done in the game for realism, and there are things that are done for a game against realism, because it just makes sense that they work that way. It makes sense to promote to Made Man to run a crew, what does not make sense is removing a users experience, just because they wanted to become a cl. I can not think of a single game I have played in the last 15 years, that has ever had a system like that. Not a single one, what does that tell you? No game designer ever wants to implement or keep a system that demoralizes players. That is what this does. Whether you did it as a mistake or purposely, it is still demoralizing to waste that time and effort and then see the game throw it in the trash. Please Izzy, show me a game where something like this was implemented.

It's not at all designed to demoralize anyone though. If someone takes auth proper, they are fine. The problem is exactly what you stated. You made a mistake. Those things happen and they can be costly. People have set up in the wrong city, and they have been killed for it. They did not come out and ask for an extra feature or anything of the nature. You can loses millions by forgetting to bribe for DFPs safety, I wouldn't consider that demoralizing. There is a reason the feature is there, and it has been stated. Now it has been made more noticeable so it catches peoples eye and actually gets read. 

TLDR/Too much philosophy: It's not meant to be demoralizing, making a mistake can cost you anything from money to your life. You have admitted you made a mistake, it costed you XP. 

If you setup in the wrong city, the game does not punish you for doing so Bobby, the players do. If you setup without permission the game does not punish you, the players do. Are you getting where I am going with this? If you forget to bribe for DFPs that is a completely different subject all together, as that is a system where there needs to be balance to. Holding DFPs generates additional income and therefore should be balanced with a need to do something to retain them, If you fail to do that something you should be punished. Here we have a prime example where the game is literally punishing you instead of letting allowing the players to decide who has the right to be a cl and who does not. Counter to the way it handles the very same topic in the other instances you mention.

Izzy, I firmly believe you are trying to balance something that does not need to be balanced by the game. Let me give you an example where I myself made that same exact mistake in a game I developed. One of my first games I made I did back in college when I was in a game development club. It was a contest and the top games where to be shown off down at GDC that year. I had about a month to make the game with myself and 1 artist and then submit it review within the club. My artist and myself decided to make a fairly simple 1 level 2D arcade shooter. The avatar the player controlled started out with a gattling gun which did 5 dmg and hate a decent rate of fire. After completing about half of the level there as an upgrade for the player they could pick up which changed their gun from a gattling gun into a lazer beam gun. In my haste and inexperience at the time for some reason I felt like I had to balance these guns so that neither was over powered. So I gave the lazer gun an increase in damage to 10 but halved its attack speed from that of gattling gun, effectively making it do the same dmg. I even ran the idea by my artist before implementing it to make sure I was doing it right. Hindsight as you can see, there is no reason to balance those 2 guns at all, its not like this is a pvp game, its an arcade shooter. The gun upgrade SHOULD be more powerful then the un-upgraded gun. This is a pitcher perfect example of balancing something that does not need to be balanced at all.

You're balancing of people setting up at WG instead of MM is the exact same thing. The game doesn't need to handle this, just like the game doesn't need to handle Rogue players. They are part of the game, and they are something that the community deals with as they pop up. If players give auth to the wrong person and they kill the wrong person, the community will deal with that leader for their mistake. And if a player is given the right to be a CL by the current leaders of the community, the game should not seek to punish the player for doing so. I am perfectly fine with there being rank requirements to be CL, and in my opinion you should just go back to not allowing WG to setup at all, this current setup, the way you have done it is incredibly harsh on the player for no real reason, and no real gain. Do CLs need to sacrifice to become leaders? Absolutely! We sacrifice our time, we sacrifice countless hours to the game both in building up the clout needed to win approve for the job, and after we gain the job we sacrifice countless hours dealing with the politics of this game. Why should the game itself make us sacrifice more? You already have steep buy in cost to being a CL with the financial need to provide 13,750,000 buy in on a 40 member crew + an addition 48 mil to purchase all the fortifications. Why add on top of that the potential for players to trade experience for the job as well?

13,750,000 is scot free? Going through all the work of talking with current cls to gain their trust and permission to setup is scot free? I'm not and never will ask for a lower rank to be able to purchase. And I would 110% back you slamming the door on that one. I do not and always will not feel the loop-hole as you call it needs to tamper with a players experience, the cost of purchasing it + time investing in getting permission to setup already balance it out enough. However as you seem unwilling to discuss this and it is your game I guess I will just drop it.

I can't believe how long this discussion has gone on for. Isn't it clear yet Otiag that no-one else thinks this is a situation that needs fixed? The system is there for a reason, by and large the userbase agrees with that reason. So to be quite frank, I'd maybe wake up and realise that people don't want this changed.

The loss of units is in there for a reason. Quite frankly if you haven't done enough to earn your button within your crew before leaving to start a family then maybe you should ask if you even deserve to be a leader? 

The usual reason people buy a HQ at the rank of Wise Guy is to go rogue without putting in the effort to gain rank within a crew and in which case why should they be given the opportunity to go from a Wise Guy to a Don and boost their wack and Defence? 

The loophole seems pretty clear really, I don't see why it is such a problem and really I think that it's fine, if you set up as Wise Guy at 100 days just to get a rank you couldn't get in your family ( Not saying that is the case here, though I don't see why you would set up as a Wise Guy anyway... ), why should you still warrant the experience and units for whatever you had before taking on the HQ? Just to shove it in your crewleaders face?

I have been playing nearly 3 years... I think, and this is the first I have ever heard of a Wise Guy purchasing a HQ to get to Made Man, I do have one question though Otiag.

Why would you buy a HQ as a Wise Guy in the first place?

I completely agree with Slash and Moe, there's no reason at all that a wiseguy without being promoted within their own crew should be able to set up his own crew at wiseguy and basically be able to self promoted themselves to anything more then Made. Not doing it the way Squishy has implemented already would be dumb.

The fact that you are saying it is alright for someone within a crew that hasn't earned their button within those walls that they have resided but it is ok that if they venture out in the world and set up their own establishment and can automatically jump up to Capo+++ makes no sense. The only people that would benefit from what you are saying Otiag are the people looking to rogue.

Like squishy has stated a couple times already in this thread, you know the sacrifices (ie: loss of exp) if you choose to set up the way you did.

I believe in the unit loss system too i am sorry to tell you Otiag.  As much as i had the pleasure of talking with you recently, my personal view is the last thing i suddenly want to see one day is a bunch of dons and consigs jump up from wg as rogues with a chance of ripping apart others just trying to play the game and have some fun too.  

Like the free cities i see this as an opportunity that comes sometimes with consequence, or the burroughs project in NY.   The same way the days rules for ranks(unlike most games i played) keeps balance, so does this rule.

I think that's the part that's missing here in the explanation and maybe that would help make things make a little more sense to Otiag to begin with - the rank jumping. 

Someone can set up in an empty district/city at wiseguy with 60 units and 120 days and self promote all the way up to GF and then we have a rogue GF on the lose with all the rank privileges and CL bonuses to boot. Or Don or Consig or whatever the highest rank you can self promote too if you got to keep your units when you set up without your button. This is a balance that you may not feel is needed but which clearly the rest of the user base does. I don't think it's fair to say that Izzy won't listen to your concerns so you're just going to drop it because it's his game. When a majority of users do bring up a concern, Izzy does listen, even if he disagrees sometimes.

The people that gave you permission to set up in LV should have been the ones to warn you and make you Made before you went to set up. This isn't something new that just came as a surprise.

Clementine brought about the first valid point I can see for keeping the system in place as it is, however I still disagree that the current system is the best way to handle that problem. I feel a gated level would be far better suited to solve that then, nah kiss your units good bye. Seeing as this is indeed a suggestion forum and I still want to see this system changed I will provide further explanation as to the gated implementation I would like to see.

Self Made CLs Will start out as Made Men, but keep their units. They will NOT however immediately posses the right to rank up from Made, even if their units and time played allows them as such to promote directly to GF. Instead there will be a minimum of a 2 days at the rank of Made before they can begin moving up the ranks. IMO if the community can't clear a rogue in 2 days, well done. We can go with a larger day gap if wished. I still feel like under any circumstances the complete removal of experience from a user is incredibly harsh. Partial removal I could live with.

And out of respect for Clementine, I'll give the reason as to why I rushed through the HQ setup. My rhm made the mistake of leaving her crew before I was announced, so I had to move swiftly to make sure she didn't get shot by a trigger happy shooter. So it was click click click, blah at the edits and get her a tag so she would survive.

Why does it need to be changed? What's wrong with it? It isn't broke.

If you can't be accepted in your family as a Made Man then why should you find another way without your CLs permission without any consequences? I think that's just absurd thinking no matter how you look at it, so you should be stopped from continuing past Made Man.

Whether your intent was to be cheeky and rude to defy your CL by getting Made Man.

there's no reason at all that a wiseguy without being promoted within their own crew should be able to set up his own crew at wiseguy and basically be able to self promoted themselves to anything more then Made.

I'm sorry you lost your units, but I feel that this is the right way to go.

So as you were never accepted in your family as a Made Man but set up as a Wise Guy instead, do we have shooting rights?

Sorry, just being cheeky on that last bit.

:(

Whats wrong with it is in the last 15 years I have never ever had a game remove experience from my character. Browsers, or otherwise. That doesn't seem wrong to you that this is literally the only game to do it? I get what you you are saying Wolf and I have already addressed that issue. If a player sets up without permission the community already deals with that very well, the game does not need to cover this at all. And my solution also allows for a much nicer reset of the game should one ever be needed. Players could put forth maximum effort into the game without having to lose all that effort when they take a crew and start leading. GO back to my scenario where there is a complete database wipe, to put this into picture I went from 5-25 in a single day on Otiag. So if there is a complete database wipe today, and everyone has to start out fresh and earn their bones, I could literally spend 1 single day grinding, get to 25 and then sit on my thumb for an additional 10 days doing nothing at all relevant. To do anything BUT this is a complete utter waste of my time as the games current setup is just going to take that time and effort and throw it in the trash can anyhow.

So I pose this question at you Woif, in that scenario why should the needs of the many fine leaders in this community be hand cuffed, for the very few unruly that sometimes visit this site? And why can't a better system be implemented that deals with those few without ruining the game for the rest? And as for your other input on this being the first time you've head of it, Thecreaper made my mistake as well. That is literally 2 in a couple days period of time.

Lastly, please discuss thoughts for or against the latest suggestion. :)

I think your entirely missing the very massive point here Otiag. I personally couldn't a monkeys about Rogues. They'll be dealt with, as you said. My issue is the rank Made Man. You cannot in the Mafia be a Self Made Man. It's just not right, its completely against the entire fabric of the community for someone to just up sticks, leave a family and decide for themselves that they are made. For that person then to just go from Made to whatever rank they've been granted by the gods would further rub salt into the wound.

If your family doesn't promote you past the rank of Wise Guy, then thats your problem.

The ONLY reason a person should be setting off on their own and making themselvs a Made Man is a power move, a Rogue action.

That is the gist of the entire problem that you either don't want to understand, or don't seem to care about.

I also honestly couldn't care less how many other games do or don't do it or how many years you've played such games. This is MR and this is how its done here and as has been shown to you by several members of the community responding only YOU seem to think that there is a problem with how it is done. I really am struggling to see why you continue to persist on saying it needs changed when no-one else has agreed with that viewpoint. It truly is baffling.

I've already addressed that Slash, but for your benefit I will say it once again. This is indeed a game, and as such there are things you adhere to for realism, and there are things you disregard in favor or good game play. It is NEVER a good game play mechanic to remove experience from the player. This is literally game design 101 in my book. That is why it has never happened to me, and why I continue to strongly oppose it here in this game. The reason why this isn't really discussed a lot and hasn't come up very often is because it is a rare instance. Its like when you play a rpg and you find that rare gem way off the beat path that the game developers put there for those guys that absolutely love to explore every bit of the game, however this isn't a gem at all in my opinion.

I get that you have no wish to discuss this topic bud, so if that is the case why do you persist in coming in here? If it irritates you that much there are plenty of other threads to spend your time in that would bring you more satisfaction. I am pretty sure there are issues you feel rather strongly about in this game and in life in generally, so I would ask that you allow me the same courtesy to feel strongly about issues myself that you are allowed.

Just a quick question or two or three before I make another post.

Did it explain to you when you took the HQ you'd lose experience and units? Was there an option to read it? Did you read it?

I'm sure it did, and I've already admitted fault for not reading it, as well as if you read up a couple posts laid out the reason for why I failed to read it.