Hours in last week: 4.51

The current state of affairs has drained my desire to be active within the community. This is the least active I have been since 2003. That says something.

I completely buy into the life cycle/circle generic response. Of course that happens, and it's no revelation when someone says it anymore. Such a generic line, that bores me. It's almost become a redundant response  now.

If things have actually happened like this, then it's an horrendous thing to bare witness too. I was not privy to anything that happened here, and and much as I love the toaly line, I'd like to think there was more than what has been written. If not, then it really is a sad state of affairs. 

While we have to accept behaviours, I still think he has nailed it in his comments. You don't blame the guys on top, you have to look deep at yourself. 

Anyway. I've rogued in the past too, incase anybody didn't know.

While I've always been friends with the Toaly line DonaldTrump has made a critical blow to this entire argument.

Far from a critical blow. He's posed two questions, that have exactly the same outcome. So regardless of the answer, it wouldn't matter becuase they are both written in a way that doesn't allow any other answer than the one that donald trump really wants. 

They are misleading questions. Hardly a nail in the coffin.

ADMINS & SUPPORTING THE SITE
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I'm new here so I can't say I know anything about how things were "back in the day" but for those talking about the game as if something is fundamentally wrong with it, how you feel like your money may be wasted here, and how you're not supporting the site anymore because the players behavior... I wonder what exactly you want the owners of the site to do to re-earn your respect of the game and how they run this business?  

• Should they be God-Striking (aka Mod-striking) or removing people when they become leaders who make rules that someone doesn't agree with?  (Won't that happen to every leader?  How will players react when the admins decide it's okay they come in and just remove people themselves?)
• Should they be God-Striking (aka Mod-striking) or removing people from leadership when folks who pay money are unhappy with them?  (Won't that feel like being able to buy your way into leadership and just make other folks unhappy with that?)
• Should they be God-Striking (aka Mod-striking) or removing people from leadership when long-time members become unhappy with them? (Wont that make people feel like new folks aren't as important on this site as the old ones?)
• Should they be God-Striking (aka Mod-striking) or removing people from leadership when newer members think things are unfair and are unhappy with leadership? (Won't that make older players who've put time and money into becoming leadership just leave?)

Not supporting the site or not spending time on the site because the current IC leadership rubs you wrong only hurts the place you MUST really like/enjoy (if you don't, why bother complaining about it?)  So, please don't stop supporting this place because of that.  Godfather's come and go (as the Original Post points out) if you don't like whose on top today... wait until tomorrow, someone else will be there for you to hate on -OR- it could be you!

THE MAFIA IS NOT HONORABLE OR FAIR (NATURE OF THE GAME)
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The nature of this game is focused on guys who steal from folks, blackmail, kidnap, and kill for a living.  These characters are NOT nice people.  It's fiction that has romanticized their way of life (and anything honorable in that way of life was really there to keep low level gangsters under the control of those higher up - NOT because it was a noble thing) & MafiaReturns focuses on the darker parts of that world.  It stands to reason that the things which characters do in such a game will also be, by their nature set up to ignore little people, be controlling of everyone under them, generally be dishonorable, and down right (for lack of a better term) evil. 

Let me be clear about how I feel... IMHO it *IS* wrong that the original poster was wacked for something his old character did?  Yep.  Totally sucks.  I really wish that crap wouldn't happen, but it does.  What can be done?  

Well, even if the Admins made a rule that said "no killing someone's character just because you are mad at them still for what they did with their last one" all that will do is cause people to make up a reason for killing you (or not tell you why they killed you.)  It's not going to stop folks from being bitter & butt hurt when they get screwed over by you with a past character.  Nor will it stop them from hanging onto that rage from one character to the next.  It's not exclusive to this game - it happens in table top games, larps, MMOs and just about every other gaming out there.  

AVOIDING THE BAD STUFF? (PSST:  THERE'S NO SUCH THING)
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So how can you protect yourself?  I suggest that if your character dies, do EVERYTHING in your power to not let someone know your oc connection to that past character.  If you were a big dog in the game and ran around killing folks and you KNOW some people might have a grudge, make a new character and try to lay low and not associate with the same players.  If that's impossible for you oocly and you KNOW that people will figure you out, accept that risk as part of the game.

I know it's crazy, but if you take a shot at someone, realize that person MIGHT just be the nut job who can't let it go & will track lineages and history of the game in a bitter quest for vengeance (wait... this is sounding suspiciously like a good mafia story.)  They could be the person who can't forgive you (or anyone associated with you) when they lose out on hours and hours and hours of their life which THEY chose to dedicate to a GAME because you took a shot at them.  They MIGHT be the sort of person with a lot of friends, the ability to hold a grudge long enough to rebuild a powerful character and the next time it's YOU who takes a long walk off a short pier. 

Here's the good thing though:  You can do the same darn thing.

IT'S THE (MAFIA) CIRCLE OF LIFE
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Look, if Admins or anyone else comes in to forcibly altered the game play, that's when it gets unfair.  It would be unfair to the current leaders if the rules changed under them and not the previous ones.  It would be unfair to a future leader (maybe you) if the rules changed under YOU after you worked hard enough to take out the current leaders.  *BUT*  If the rules stay the same and players can expect the same playing field again and again... when it's your turn to be low man on the totem pole, start rebuilding your oc/ic empire.  

Does it suck re-spending all those long hours to try to rebuild connections, ic resources etc while under the watchful eye of someone who wants to squish you every time you get big enough to matter?  HECK YES.  Yes it does.  BUT, people get distracted.  And if you're not constantly reminding them you're out there, sometimes they make the mistake of not staying vigilant in their rage... and that's when you put a bullet in them, you and your shiny new bodyguards and friends.  If you're really good, you were so quiet the guys never saw you coming.  And then it's you making the IC rules... and you who has to watch some little guy non-stop forever and ever to make sure they don't get too big and too powerful to get revenge.

Oddly enough... as tiresome as it is for you to have to try to rebuild power under the watchful eyes of a giant character... he/she is always in the prison having to watch his back for you too.  You're in a mexican stand off of power forever and always.  You're both miserable.  You both are watching each other, hating each other and feeling that the other one is making this place suck so much!

Kinda like the real mafia... ever notice how in those shows, books, movies the big dog always gets tired of having to be so paranoid and never letting his guard down?  It says a lot for the site that they've captured the realistic feel of that here.  

In the real world mafia, if you gack a guy... then forever after you have to watch his kids, and his kids kids and their friends and always worry that the one person smiling at you today might not really like you but instead be just trying to get close to you.  The mafia isn't HONORABLE, it's paranoid.  It's distrusting and hateful and its a world where little guys are abused and big guys never sleep well at at night because some no one they might not have realized is related some some slouch they gacked five years ago, might be the bullet that hits its mark.

There are a lot of jerks in life and if you're looking for a "nice, fair, and respectable bunch of gangsters" - well, I suppose you might not have understood the nature of the type of people we're playing... and what type of players a game like this will probably attract.

Just remember the game isn't about building mafia themed super friends.  It's not about building spiffy houses & killing the npcs & doing bot based jobs (that's how the site owners make $ and its just preparing your stats for the REAL game.) 

The real game is about the little guys wanting more.  It's about them making connections with other little guys who want more too, & them taking pot shots at big guys who are cruel & oppressive, but mostly paranoid that eventually their luck/power/control over everything will run out.  And it will.  And so will the next guys, and the next guy after him - ad infinitum.

In a weird way, once you get to Godfather, the game changes.  It's no longer about being a little guy climbing to the top.  You're there... and the worst part is, you'll NEVER succeed in staying there forever.  There is NO win condition in mafia games.  Just a really screw prison where your once seemingly noble little guy scrapper becomes an NPC Villian the world is shooting at and all you can do is pray that today isn't the day some other little noble scrapper doesn't get lucky and hit the mark.

Or... maybe you're the sort of player who is wise to the game and realizes the fun was in the climb up... not sitting at the top.  And you ironically hope someone will get lucky so you can go back to being a noble little guy again, instead of a hated evil villain.  I wouldn't know... I haven't made it to the top yet.  I just figure, the view from up there is probably quite a bit different (and less satisfying) than you think.

Anyway, that's the disclaimer they should hang above the door on your way into the game.

ONE MORE THING
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... on a much less preachy note, one more true to who I think I am as a person: Original Poster - I really do hope you stick around and keep playing despite how much you might be upset right now.  You seem like a well spoke and intelligent person who's been here to see some history of the game.  It always sucks losing those sorts of people from a game community.  I don't know you YET, and I'm not sure my words meant anything to you (but maybe they'll mean something to someone - hence why I spoke up), but for what it's worth I would love to get to know you as a player & I wish you future success and enjoyment of the game.  I'm sure there are others here who feel the same.

-D aka the nicer/kinder (real world side) of ☘ Lucky Lucy Fazzone ☘

Speak for yourself, Barley. I find Lucy's post adorable.

DonaldTrump I'd argue that the primary concern raised in Toaly's words is that one rarely notices or addresses these problems until after one has been killed. This is, as Toaly puts it, the reason we always believe "it's not me." My city won't get destroyed. I won't be bloodlined. People think there's value in their loyalty, their tribute, or their guns, but it's worth absolutely nothing. The regime loses nothing when they kill you. They have all of the top 10 guns on their side and they're all BG capped + tons of named BGs. And they can just swipe a credit card or put another city up for rent if the money dries up to pay for those BGs.

It doesn't take some monumental "look inside yourself" moment to realize this. For you, DonaldTrump, you have to know that they'll kill off NY whenever they feel like it. New York was previously led by Disorder's best (?) friend, and that didn't even slow him down.

I don't believe Toaly's previous account was in any position to make sweeping changes to our world (like I said, they own all of the top 10 guns). The truth of the matter is that it's systemic. This game simply doesn't offer opportunity anymore, which is what used to be its biggest draw. You could make anything of yourself. Now you can't. Not if you said something bad about Disorder two accounts ago. Or train your gun. Or buy too many BGs. Or were on the wrong side of war once.

Players are being restricted incessantly (and you can see this in Disorder's latest scheme) and those who escape or surpass the restrictions are bloodlined. People come to Disorder's defense saying he wouldn't use these restrictions to bloodline (LarryLongNeck) but then you see shit like this. The mountain of bullshit peddled by this regime amounts basically to propaganda; trying to keep the players placated enough to keep making accounts after they're killed. "Look at all the opportunity in these pay-to-play cities! I mean we'll kill you anyways (James), but look at the opportunity!"

Eventually someone has to realize how awful this is for the community. I know plenty of players who don't bother signing up because they know they'll get the same experience as Toaly here. If they are allowed to work, they're killed after millions of dollars and hundreds of hours of work simply due to their bloodline.

On another note, I get that this is supposed to be the Mafia, but knowingly allowing a player like Toaly to generate millions and millions of dollars for your crew and then killing him simply for being Toaly is despicable. Angy should be fucking ashamed of herself.

My dear Toaly, you neglected remind the public that you were caught plotting in between the time of Tetley's demise and today.

During the era of SpikeS, DoctorBoom, and Pine you were caught and murdered for plotting to rogue with your friends and harm the established regime.  You were all incognito, much like you guys attempted in the present day, until we broke your incogs and found your true identity.  You all were systematically dealt with, claimed innocence, then our boy Goku came to the streets with logs proving that your "Four Horsemen" group was indeed fact.  The only mistake made by the establishment was that we should not have attacked SpacePole as he was innocent.

Now to present day.  Your friends MikeHunt and Goku were found by intelligence services and found to be building quite nice weapons yet again.  You were found to not be far behind.  Sense a pattern?  Curtis and Co are intelligent men and women, why on earth would anyone take that sort of risk in letting you be?  To me, that would be inviting their own demise.  You can claim innocence all you please but I don't think many in the know are going to believe you.  People don't forget who wronged them.  I understand this post here is to incite the masses but I think is has backfired.  Anyone with a brain is going to see your situation and think "God damn I'm glad that's not me".

I get it, I really do.  You see yourself as a freedom fighter for the common good of every man.  One mans freedom fighters is another mans terrorist.  Terrorists are not left to their own devices.  Please don't sit here and claim innocence then try to incite mass violence.

I think what is also notable is that when reprimanded, both you and Mike exclaim about how much money you donate. 

Lord Toaly, one of the biggest problems for your history is that you played "confidence games" in the past: One with Trixie, two years ago. One last year, with the pheasant above. You donated a lot, but it clearly did not commensurate with your loyalty those times and there was no reason for anyone's opinion to have changed... in the ten months that you weren't playing. Make sense?

Also, your buddy Brucie was building and involved in undergrounds in LV, why weren't you? Or were you just waiting for a convenient time to throw on that explosive vest... biding your time away in hookah lounges and goat meat until then. Did his death ruin some plans, and now you were on the straight and narrow? Only wondering. 

Moreover, I beg to question how someone didn't reveal the political climate to you when you came back. I'm sure you knew, but you accepted the risk. Or moreover were you "hoping" your leader would fight for your life since you had been so innocent? Did you want to be someone's liability? Now clearly your angle is to be used as a catalyst/martyr, but that is far from true Christ lamb innocence. 

Respectfully, I am sorry for your loss, but a chance in behavior can't be shown in ten months off. People remember the worst, assume the worst, and act on the worst. Pragmatism is king. 

I think if you were on top and someone had rogued on you... You'd kill them, too.

Let's be real.

Tell you what, answer me this: If you were to have successfully removed this regime (I know Don-Ald was innocent, but humour me) and you ended up on top of the game - In 3 months time when they were all reaching big guns and looking scary because you'd wronged them before... Would you let them float up to 1200, happily waiting for the bullet to return to you?

Nah.. Didn't think so. 

My concern is twofold:

1. If Toaly was never to be trusted, why invite him? Why promote him? Why string him along for almost three months when his character could only end in a purging bullet? All of you objecting to Toaly's thoughts answer this: If it's so wrong to lie about your intentions and rogue (bad enough to be bloodlined for years to come even by OTHER regimes), why is it acceptable for leaders to lie about their intentions and bloodline their members instead of protecting them? How can anyone in their right mind condemn one and justify the other? Either it's wrong to lie about your intentions to get what you want or it's not. The mental gymnastics in this thread is fucking incredible.

2. None of the responses given here amount to anything more than bloodlining. @Judgment, BeautifulSpikeS, and Pollution, you are only validating that Toaly was killed exclusively for the actions of past accounts, which is in direct contradiction to how Disorder claims he runs his regime. Saying Toaly should have known he'd die is only adding more fire to Toaly's flame. The fact that it's so obvious that a player like Toaly would get bloodlined that he shouldn't have even bothered playing.

ohh - You can take from my response whatever twisted message you'd like.. But you'd be mistaken.

I'm not validating anything. Go back and re-read. I am merely stating that Toaly would have shot them in the same manner he was shot, so he has no right to pass judgement on it.