It'd be delightful if the Godfathers felt the need to use the streets more. However they don't for the most part and part of the reason for that is probably because they view the streets as pretty irrelevant. If you want to see them speak on the streets more, you need to get on the streets more yourself and do more there in terms of trying to make things more interesting.

I still don't understand the change that has over inflated by one hell of a long way the value of OOC, but I don't think it's anything other than bad news for the actual Streets.

I think there's definitely been a slow increase in street activity of late, compared to when I first returned at least. The activity doesn't concern me as much as the amount of leaders sharing their opinions. On odd occasions you will see a handful of the Godfathers/Leaders speak on the topics raised, but the remainder are content with staying silent.

I know not everyone has the ability to type up a well written thread or response but as brought up in Maria's thread from the streets, there will always be people around to help out with that kind of thing. Surely nobody is too proud to ask for a little help and I refuse to believe that 80-90% of the leaders have no opinion whatsoever on some of the topics raised in the street. I do understand that some may be temporarily busy and so they can't dedicate their full time to the game, let alone the streets but again this would only be a handful of Godfathers/Leaders.

I don't expect to see any change from the current regime since it contains members that never come out to the street. Therefore I'd say they're unlikely to put something in place when it's obvious not all of them will abide by it.

The fact that so many of the older players have left now seems to have affected the way the streets are, a lot of the more outspoken players are either banned, just don't like the way the game is now, or they have realised there's more to life than sitting for hours at a computer screen.

There are some new players, or at least new to me, who seem to have grasped the idea of the game and that's good to see but there just aren't enough characters to replace those that are gone. I think there's plenty with potential but when leaders and Godfathers aren't encouraging players to come out to the street then people will be content with clicking all day.

It's a sad state of affairs. I also think when there is a power shift which encourages this type of thing, a lot of the new players won't be happy with the idea of having to come out to the streets more, it may even deter some from playing. I think we need to have a standard of player, or at least a standard for our Leaders and people need to live up to those standards for the good of the game.

I agree with the above regarding the shift in mindset needed to have people of our ilk in the streets more often. I have always felt that speaking in public for meaningful reasons shows some insights into the type of leader you are. It is rare for someone to have that kind of power and not have the mindset needed to make sound decisions regarding the path this world takes.

Especially in times like these where the population ratio of leaders vs. members causes a rush to get every available crew member, there is value in separating yourself from the competition to show a bit of influence on the streets. By no means does that mean that leaders need to be fully transparent like has been suggested at various times in the past (not by this thread but elsewhere), but when leaders make appearances it benefits the overall health of this thing of ours.

Have you ever thought that the Godfathers discussed this at lengths behind closed doors before announcing it? It wasn't made as a discussion thread between the Godfathers about the future of Philly, it was an announcement about the conclusion we had reached to the wider community. 

".. 2 of 12 Godfathers have commented on the situation. 2 people out of 12, that's just heart breaking for this game. I don't understand it, but Ive come to terms with it. When something like this happens and the users of this game don't hear from all the powers that be, you just shake your head and give up." 

- Vaelin_Al_Sorna

 You read two lines out of 22 lines... that's just heartbreaking to see someone who made it to the rank of "Boss" come out here and piss in the wind and get it it all in their own face. *Hands Vaseline a towel*
But it's a good thing that you at least admit to understanding your problem and accepting it [as you mentioned], it is the first step towards rehabilitation. 

 

Have you ever thought that the Godfathers discussed this at lengths behind closed doors before announcing it?

That would of course be his initial assumption considering Mako confirmed it was discussed and he was announcing on behalf of the GFC. That doesn't preclude anyone from the GFC from also coming to the streets to share any views/opinions etc or even shock horror, answer questions?

Its not asking for the world to have the people in power be more visible to those on the streets. As Vaelin said himself, we recognise that the likes of IRC or Skype etc are easier forms of communication for a group meeting such as this - however then coming to the streets afterwords to be available to actually give some input to the choice isn't exactly too much to ask, is it?

As for StarScream, I don't think i'll even bother to acknowledge that response. Childish doesn't even quite cover it really.

Thank you Desmand though for coming here to, for want of a better phrase, defend yourself. Whilst the thread is not an attack on yourself per se, it's good to see that attention is being paid and that you are listening to the complaints that the user base has.

Thank you also to Vaelin for bringing this out here, though I must admit I agree with Maria (fucking hell, its happend again!), the users do need to bring themselves out to the streets more if they want to bring some value back to it, and not just to argue over things. The more the user base actually puts into the streets, perhaps the more those in power will utilise it. I don't exactly feel thats how it should be, it should really be the leaders leading from the front and using the streets more to teach the value of them to those new to the game, but if thats not happening then its down to the rest of us to work on a way that will fix it.

Silence is actually golden. The quieter you are the more you can live without being noticed. The attention is off of you and if you disagree with the major or popular opinion you won't find a target on the front of your shirt. Maybe people have already made great points why silence is not golden, but sometimes silence is the best way to go or is the most encouraged thing to do. 

FourLoko brings up a good point I would like to expand upon.  To speak in the streets opens one up to a variety of consequences – some good and some not so good.  Others who read your words may applaud your efforts; some will agree, many maybe will disagree.  All of this is healthy.  The issue arises if ridicule is what results from your speaking though.  And ridicule does indeed occur.  I see people ridiculed for their ability to express themselves as much as for the thoughts they are presenting.  This is not so healthy – if what you desire is people who speak about what is on their minds.  It will tend to make people stop speaking. 

What is worse than ridicule, however, is if people take offense and retaliate.  This, too is a possibility if you annoy the wrong person.  A person can end up dead in this situation.  This can also tend to make people stop speaking.

Silence is a safer way to be.  You can have your opinion without the criticism that could result if you shared it.  This is not so healthy for our community, but people frequently do what is in their own best interest rather than what is in the community’s best interest.

I see people ridiculed for their ability to express themselves as much as for the thoughts they are presenting. 

When and where? I seriously hate this point... it hasn't been relevant in years and people really do need to stop pretending this happens. If it actually happened just tell me when and where and I'll do everything I can to rip that person a new one.

What is worse than ridicule, however, is if people take offense and retaliate.  This, too is a possibility if you annoy the wrong person.  A person can end up dead in this situation.  This can also tend to make people stop speaking.

Anything you do or don't do can make you a target, please don't pretend that street speaking is somehow dangerous. Who has been shot for something said in the streets lately that hasn't been an asshole to the nth degree? Seriously, you have to try to get shot for street speaking to get shot nowadays for street speaking nowadays.

Silence is a safer way to be.  You can have your opinion without the criticism that could result if you shared it.  This is not so healthy for our community, but people frequently do what is in their own best interest rather than what is in the community’s best interest.

Is Silence safer? That's kind of like walking away from a fire. Yeah you're less likely to trip and break your leg, but this is a game about collecting as many allies, kills, dollars, etc... as you can as quickly as you can. Constantly taking the safe way can actually get you killed because you took too long to acquire certain things and someone taking a tiny risk every now and then got their first, and you're missing out on an opportunity to prove you're capable of leading by passing on street speaking. It has become a rare skill and with the VIP Point system being so huge for keeping all the hitters hitting quickly and effortlessly during these many Durden Spawns I'm sure a fair percentage of District Leaders will want a few vocal leaders paving the way for their district to be competitive in the race for VIP Points.

I took a ton of risks to get where I am today but speaking in the streets was never one of them... and I'm a CL. So it's not really in your best interests to stay quiet forever or take the safe road unless you're incapable of preventing yourself from personally insulting a bunch of other people intentionally when you speak or incapable of handling any kind of pressure when you take risks. This response likely annoyed you/made you feel slighted, but I'm assuming you can handle a differing opinion and can understand nothing about this was meant to be personal so that'll pass a lot faster than most people would think and it'll be business as usual should something come up where we have to work together.

Is Silence safer? That's kind of like walking away from a fire. Yeah you're less likely to trip and break your leg, but this is a game about collecting as many allies, kills, dollars, etc... as you can as quickly as you can. Constantly taking the safe way can actually get you killed because you took too long to acquire certain things and someone taking a tiny risk every now and then got their first, and you're missing out on an opportunity to prove you're capable of leading by passing on street speaking.

I agree with all of this, except for the last bit. I wish it were true, actually, but there is little focus on the Streets anymore. People get CL and GF positions after month-long absences in the Streets, to the point where I can't say we put much value on it. There's no danger in not posting, and there's no great reward for posting. So people just stopped. I don't think it's necessarily safer, as much as it's just easier. I don't see much danger or volatility in the Streets anymore, and certainly not among this group of leaders.

We either need to start calling people out on these things and demand more from our leaders, or just accept that this is the new status quo.

 When and where? I seriously hate this point... it hasn't been relevant in years and people really do need to stop pretending this happens. If it actually happened just tell me when and where and I'll do everything I can to rip that person a new one.

@IronSight, that's very noble of you, but what happens when you're in agreement with the side that is doing the ridiculing.  What happens when you disagree with someone speaking their opinion and then call them a moron. 

Slow expansion has been given a shot to change things, and for you morons let me spell this out for you.

Calling someone or multiple people a moron because you don't agree with them is classy. Chopping one persons thoughts down to make yours seem higher. There are a million other ways you could have expressed that you didn't agree with what some people were saying, but instead you called them a moron. Ridiculing them. 

I see people ridiculed for their ability to express themselves 

lronSight begins applauding,

Bravo Eepster! Way to show everyone you're capable of reading. I stand against ridiculing someone over their ability to express themselves, not ridiculing in general. That being said you trying to show the world my opinions aren't as valuable because I cut down other people's opinions while calling me a hypocrite is... fantastic. Run away little girl, there's more to this story than others can see and if you pursue this any further I'll return the favor and show people just how classy you really are.

I agree with all of this, except for the last bit. I wish it were true, actually, but there is little focus on the Streets anymore. People get CL and GF positions after month-long absences in the Streets, to the point where I can't say we put much value on it. There's no danger in not posting, and there's no great reward for posting. So people just stopped. I don't think it's necessarily safer, as much as it's just easier. I don't see much danger or volatility in the Streets anymore, and certainly not among this group of leaders.

We either need to start calling people out on these things and demand more from our leaders, or just accept that this is the new status quo.

Denam I'm greatly pleased to see you commenting with a little self-restraint and I really hope to see you speaking more. I greatly disagree with a lot of what you have to say but it's important to have people vocalizing their opinions for the right reasons and obviously you believe in everything you say. Moving onto the comment,

The danger is one found in economics classes more than physical losses, you're losing because you're taking the option with less results. Yes it is possible to do it in other ways and its become popular to try to rise to power without street speaking, but honestly if you show you're any good at it you'll be much more likely to get in a position to rise than if you hadn't. It probably is easier to go without street speaking, but it's also easier to build a gun without paying for MIAs. You're just not gonna get the desired results in a timely manner. As a leader I can't really tell other leaders how to act without risking my own neck, but if people want street speaking leaders then they should ask for it or only follow people that do so. CLs never have and never will have all the power, a lot of their power comes from their members and if you choose to only follow CLs that do speak openly you're personally taking a step towards seeing that happen again. It might not be as big as convincing the current CLs to speak or convincing the masses to only join street speaking CLs, but it's a start.

The danger is one found in economics classes more than physical losses, you're losing because you're taking the option with less results. Yes it is possible to do it in other ways and its become popular to try to rise to power without street speaking, but honestly if you show you're any good at it you'll be much more likely to get in a position to rise than if you hadn't. It probably is easier to go without street speaking, but it's also easier to build a gun without paying for MIAs. You're just not gonna get the desired results in a timely manner. As a leader I can't really tell other leaders how to act without risking my own neck, but if people want street speaking leaders then they should ask for it or only follow people that do so. CLs never have and never will have all the power, a lot of their power comes from their members and if you choose to only follow CLs that do speak openly you're personally taking a step towards seeing that happen again. It might not be as big as convincing the current CLs to speak or convincing the masses to only join street speaking CLs, but it's a start.

My contention is not that it can't or won't have benefits, but rather that it is easy to attain positions of power without it. As a matter of fact, I'll concede that speaking in the Streets is a great way to work on your influence in the game, but it went from being necessary to being sub-optimal. Like, we have leaders now who haven't even made an auth speech. That's the bare minimum when it comes to CL Street Presence, and some just aren't up to it. Does that put them at a disadvantage? Not really. When it comes to the numbers, they'll be able to compete equitably with other players. Their info skill may be lacking, but you can grind BD posts or draw straws in your crew for info answers.

I agree with your solution, though. I just think the route to power has so swerved away from the Streets, that even the crew members don't put much emphasis on it anymore either. I mean, if no one at the top does it, why should I do it? It's a bit of a catch-22 in that sense. We want to encourage this change from the bottom-up, but the natural order of things is working against it. It's a tricky problem to solve if many leaders turn a blind eye to it; which is what I see happening lately.

Thanks FourLoko, but I'd settle for you joining a district and not trying to immediately cause drama leading to an in house death. Blu_Blank retired and you were involved... Oh God how shocking!

My contention is not that it can't or won't have benefits, but rather that it is easy to attain positions of power without it. As a matter of fact, I'll concede that speaking in the Streets is a great way to work on your influence in the game, but it went from being necessary to being sub-optimal. Like, we have leaders now who haven't even made an auth speech. That's the bare minimum when it comes to CL Street Presence, and some just aren't up to it. Does that put them at a disadvantage? Not really. When it comes to the numbers, they'll be able to compete equitably with other players. Their info skill may be lacking, but you can grind BD posts or draw straws in your crew for info answers.

Admittedly it is easy to work around street speaking and it has become unnecessary but beneficial. That being said I've never made an auth speech, lol, but I get the point you were going for and obviously I wasn't intended to be included in the group of mute CLs but I thought anyone reading could have a laugh at the fact I still haven't told the world I'm a CL. The vision aspect is another subject, because I actually prefer that set of answers for accounts I plan to fully commit to, but that's more personal and I see what you're saying about too much vision is gained from starting answers but messing with that could completely throw off the vision dynamic and cause immediate imbalances for one Info or Stealth answers.

I agree with your solution, though. I just think the route to power has so swerved away from the Streets, that even the crew members don't put much emphasis on it anymore either. I mean, if no one at the top does it, why should I do it? It's a bit of a catch-22 in that sense. We want to encourage this change from the bottom-up, but the natural order of things is working against it. It's a tricky problem to solve if many leaders turn a blind eye to it; which is what I see happening lately.

I'm glad you agree with the solution and I agree with the nature of the problem being a catch-22 for people who want things to change, but in my time here I've come to believe that efforts really don't go unnoticed very long and even if you don't get the response you want you'll at least get the issue attention that it probably deserves.

@IronSight, every time the game goes down for maintenance it's trying to keep up with me, even when I don't have an account, I'm just that damn dramatic.