" There is not a problem with the game, "

... I am done with this conversation. Your ignorance and stubbornness are both equally appalling and sickening. 

• Stop wiping every person under Made in a crew any time the CL so much as sneezes in the wrong direction.
• Stop requiring every leader to kill their own members after a certain amount of time/kills.
• Stop requiring every leader to remove their members gun every time there's a rogue.
• Let the CL's/GF's of a given city actually...I don't know, run their own city?

1. Baseless accusation. 

2.  Is there any concrete evidence?  Is it really this black and white?  Not likely.  

3.  This is a pretty effective strategy site wise.  The aim is to eliminate rogues as a community.  Is it really that terrible to remove a gun, that you can get back rather quickly?  They're looking out for everyone.  It's not just one city/crew.  

4.  This is part of the game, usually one person runs the game.  Others are allowed to set up, and as long as they dont fuck up they can keep it.  The problem is,  people are not capable anymore of running a city effectively.  People do not learn from the mistakes of others, and repeatedly make the same mistakes, and eventually see the same fate.  

Henri, I really hope you are done.  LOL

I don't know the rate of players leaving the game, and I don't know how the finances are holding up, but if Squishy is getting concerned, then it's something that needs to be looked at. And, I've never seem regimes run quite like this before. They would take down people threatening them, sure. But never the random mass-murdering that's taken place. How many times can a player get stomped down into the dust for no reason before they decide that it isn't worth it? It's something I've fought with myself personally, either during this regime or in regimes run by the leaders of this one in the past. I've never contemplated quitting the game and never returning for any other regime. 

As for why this is "Disorder's or this regime's problem," they're playing with what could be a finite resource. Is it worth holding every single string, dominating every single aspect of this game, even if it brings about the death of the game itself? I've probably already signed my own death warrant by coming here and speaking my mind like this. But I, like Henry and so many other players, love this game. We've put thousands of hours into this game, and we don't want to see it disappear.

As for why this is "Disorder's or this regime's problem," they're playing with what could be a finite resource. Is it worth holding every single string, dominating every single aspect of this game, even if it brings about the death of the game itself? I've probably already signed my own death warrant by coming here and speaking my mind like this. But I, like Henry and so many other players, love this game. We've put thousands of hours into this game, and we don't want to see it disappear.

I doubt you've signed any death warrant, you'll find that Disorder isn't as bad as everyone claims.  You're voicing your opinion, and were allowed to do that as far as I know. 

I just want to know what everyone would do in Disorder's position.  People want you dead, they are determined to kill you.  Do you sit back and wait for them to kill you??  I mean I just do not understand what the hell hes supposed to do :S.  I really don't. 

Insidious hands FearlessJ a shovel

Here this'll help

DrWankenstein, 

Thats pretty much the bottom line!  Get on top, stay on top.  

There's a difference between having proof that people are plotting to attack you and destroy your regime, and killing people because they are a decently-old age and have a decent gun and might harbor ill feelings against you. Me, personally? If I was in charge of the game? I'd try to be relatively fair. I would realize that I won't hold all the strings and all the power. I wouldn't insist that every single city and CL kneel and swear fealty. I wouldn't do random purges of the populace. That wouldn't make my position any more stable; it would breed discontent, and eventually anger. Ultimately, I don't think the current attitude can be a feasible path for the future. 

As  for the death warrant, I'm just being realistic. My character is 49 days old. That's one strike. I've made comments in this thread that could be seen as critical or dissenting from the current regime; that's strike two. Will I live long enough for a strike three?

My main argument that you're ignoring, though, is that how is this affecting the game? We have, from Squishy's own mouth, that people are leaving the game, and fairly regularly. I don't know the current new player stats, or at least the new players that become steady members. How far does this problem have to go before something is done? I'm not saying that the current regime has to be DDed/removed, but something has to change. Does the attitude of the current regime change? Or does the game falter and possibly die?

And I want to say, before I continue, that I don't hate this regime. They should be proud of having held control for so long, and I respect Disorder for what he's accomplished. I just think that something's gotta give.

I find it hilarious that Primus probably one of the ones pulling all the strings warned me about Curtis prior to him deciding to work with him. Warning me that Curtis did not forget that I ruined his last run and that he wanted revenge, and that Curtis had a list of people who he was going to kill that wronged in the past. You keep telling people to adapt to the regime, what does that buy you? 60 days? You really think that anybody who has ever wronged Curtis will live?

Curtis has played fantastic, I could have killed him when I was just a 200 gun and he was a Made with no BGs at like 80 days old whatever he was, but its not that deep to me. Primus had lists of 100+ people when I was under JTG that he wanted to kill, you all knew what he was capable of and would do if power was ever handed back to him now you people act surprised.

You knew that Disorder would side with somebody to get to power and it wouldn't be the spineless people he was associating with at the time, he needed people that would keep him alive not kill him and you knew that Niflheim was on the rise looking for people.

Seriously stop blaming Disorder for what this place has become, stop blaming the Leaders in power now or those that died prior, blame yourself, like those that died who could have killed him should blame themselves. Its the populations fault that these people are where they are today, you allowed it just like you allowed JTG to do the same last run and the run he had prior. Just like you did for 303 when they reigned and myself included didn't take down one of them when I could have. You guys constantly allow this then expect Izzy to just fix it or DD everybody, start having a fucking spine and taking blame for yourself.

Curtis you may be a twat, but I personally enjoy your reign, you did it right, you didn't fuck up yet at least like you did last time putting people in power that wouldn't suck your butt any time you asked them to like the ones around you now. Great job, honestly you have earned my respect a little bit.

I just think its a shame that this regime is demonized because they're so damn good at this game.  - FearlessJ

There's definitely nobody that can say their bad at it but there is two parts to this game and they completely shine in one aspect but lack in another. It's one thing to kill someone you think might be coming after you but when you're not sure and you kill five just to make sure that means you are reckless or desperate. I've seen rogues, albeit not as many as there are these days, be snuffed out by the upper structures quite effortlessly with little damage and quick precision. This would lead to rouge attempts being difficult therefore not many would risk their lives on doing it knowing they wouldn't cause much upheaval.

The way I see it the people in charge don't know how to handle it properly, I'm not saying that I would do any better, I just don't understand why they take so many lives trying to find one target and from the outside looking in it looks like they can't handle it properly. 

Again I'm not saying I would do any better or if I'm even seeing the full picture it's just how I see it from the outside looking in...

1.) Baseless? The proof's in the pudding, guy. There is absolutely fuck all that these lower ranked people could do to disrupt things in any real fashion, and yet with every take-down we've seen in the last...6 months? Every person in the crews gets wiped, how is this baseless?

2.) Yes, there is concrete evidence. Look at the Obits and you will regularly find people being purged (most recently, in Bunny's crew).

3.) It is semi-effective in the removal of rogues, I'll concede that much. It is not however "looking out for everyone" by far, it is in fact, looking out for themselves - which is fair enough, again I will concede to this particular point.

4.) There is always at least the semblance of multiple people running the show. The title of CrewLeader and Godfather at the moment don't mean jack shit, because the users know that when push comes to shove, their CL's won't stand up for them, and won't even come out publicly to admit that these things are occurring - even in an OOC fashion such as this.

There's a clear-cut difference, as Sean had noted, between taking out actual threats, and simply leveling the playing field repeatedly.

None of the actual problems are being given a true and reasonable response. We're going to keep hearing "lol get good" and "oh well should have killed him earlier". Is this even remotely relevant at this point? We're at the point of the game's life where one of two things is going to happen.

1.) The current regime accepts even a little responsibility for the fact that their playing style and tactics are the cause for many users leaving the site, and we see slight changes made on their behalf to give the average person any fucking reason for playing.

2.) The current tactics don't change, at all, and more Game Changes are made to alter the inevitable death of our site.

Personally, given the information Larry stated about both Curtis and himself being alright with a reset at this point, wouldn't it make more sense instead for the fucking playing style from those at the top to just shift a little?!

Sighs.

But, yet again, I suspect my points will be ignored, dodged, deflected, or otherwise responded to with the feedback of "you're just mad you're not on top" or "where is the proof?" or just flat out met with denial/lies.

The proof is impossible to concretely provide when it entails either getting information from people who have left the site, or the information to be given by CL's (such as confirmation of said purge lists, or confirmation that they do indeed fail to stick up for their members).

None of this will ever be provided, as the first scenario entails people who are no longer around, and the second would surely be a death warrant for said CL(s).

I'm not interested in more Game Changes. I'm not interested in a power-shift. I'm not interested in nor are the responses of "should have killed them earlier" even remotely relevant. What I am interested in is, as Sean said, is something giving in.

Again, I'd much rather see this being done on a player level (preferably via a shift in playing style, and not removal,) as opposed to more Game Changes.

Sadly, given the fact(s) that these conversations are always flooded with half-assed and often circular debates, denial, insults, or in general the "lol too bad" attitude, combined with the refusal to accept any responsibility whatsoever, I fear tremendously that the Game Change(s) option is one that is, at this point, unavoidable. And that's a damn shame.

I just don't get how you can place all this blame on "the regime" for the games state. All anyone has done is play the game, sure users may not like it but there have been no wrong doings in terms of how things have been played. It took a lot of work and some master strokes for this regime to get to where they are, they deserve to be up there and they deserve to play the game how they feel.

Changes have been made many times during this regime's reign, which directly affect those in power and as a result, counter measures have been made to ensure that it doesn't harm the regime too much. You can't blame anyone for making those moves in order to stay alive. Nobody wants to die after investing so much time and effort into things.

What is the purpose of the game if it's not to rule? I don't get it. Everyone wants to be the top dog, everyone wants to reign supreme and if you don't then what are you doing here? Sure I get some like to role play and that is as far as their ambition goes, but that applies to a very small minority of the users.

The constant drivel about users walking away from the game because they invest time, money and effort into their accounts for them to die is literally bollocks, we all die eventually after spending time, effort and money and surely it's vital that we protect all this investment that we've put into the game? Else we've done it all for nothing. 

People pay lots of money into this game, they put lots of effort into their accounts, nobody wants that to end so why would you allow yourself to get into a position of vulnerability?

This whole situation just supports the fact that the game doesn't seem able to handle regimes and each time we see an effective group of people running the game, we see a host of changes being made to game mechanics to support their downfall. If this is an issue, make it so people can't rule for long periods of time. I'm sure people would be more willing to get behind that idea in order to avoid era's like Roman, CP, 303, and the current troop which seems to be placed on Disorder's shoulders every time for some reason.

While I completely agree that it's the players responsibility to upend any regime (and rather quite easy, if the effort is put in) I do have to disagree with the statement that these changes are being made to end this regime. Nothing changed so far hurts anyone on top, nor does it really help anyone on the bottom overthrow anything.

NPC's should never have sent W/S to begin with (No one in any mob knows fuck all who shoots what in any other city, come on) and the detective thing punishes the strong scorched earthing the weak.

The biggest problem is the ego most of the 'leaving' players have. Swallow that shit, and you'd be surprised what can happen. Just because you were on top once doesn't make you king shit. It means you lucked the fuck out and got to the top. So do it again. The current top is playing rather well in my opinion, albeit paranoid, but that comes with the territory I think. The hatred for the top is childish and unfounded. 'You play better than me so I'm going to throw a bitch fit, take my ball, and go home' Fuck that. Grow a pair.

Ok  - well.. The game is about to be turned OFF for good. How about we, as a community of players and mature adults, come together as one, and try to change the game for the better. Stop ripping each other and blaming each other. Try to think creatively and positively, geared towards the survival of MR. Do it now, or lose the game for good. 

It's WE the players.

As has been mentioned. As soon as I was told about the state of the game's health, I suggested it be reset so various changes could be made that improved the game's organic recycling and leadership turnover. This would have obviously meant the end to 'the regime' and all the problems that everyone likes to ascribe to me and this collective leadership. 

We took control of the game and continue to hold a grip on it. This isn't "kicking those smaller than them might be a rush the first time, a few times, but now its expanded to kicking women, children, puppies" which is a fucking ridiculous, hyperbolic reaction to us simply continuing to win and control a game. Its just a game. It isn't abusing people. Hurting the innocents or kicking women and children. How absurd and infantile can you get? Grow the fuck up.

We won the game. Simple as that. When I was told in private that what we had done was impressive but that it was causing problems as a side effect, I offered a few different solutions to solve the problem. I also suggested a reset and I was willing to bet that virtually no one would complain about a little down-time for the game while very sensible changes were made and the game restarted with a clean slate. All of the very simple solutions I suggested were rejected out of hand. 

So really, any argument any of you have about us being unethical or somehow unconcerned with the health of the game don't stand up. Just be aware that we all offered to die along with everyone else, for the sake of solving the problems. That offer was refused. Every argument you can make after that is totally void.

This thread again went ape shit and come to normal again .Please don't go ape shit again fellas , it is not sensible to read toset things repeating one another.

My issue here is you feel like the Donald Trump of MR. You've capitalized on that side of humanity. Some of the players aren't here to "win" like you. Some of the players don't have the same view of "winning" as you. Some of the players don't even give a fuck. I think all the "exploit" calls are bullshit, you guys are vets and know the ins and outs that's all this really is. I think the "abuse" calls are bullshit as well, as mentioned before you guys are vet players, you know how it goes here. Random sidenote, Curtis and grin you guys are 2 fantastic fucking writers... Or whoevers writing that shit idk i assume its you. 

You may not have been breaking rules or any of that, but you've become efficient enough where the balance of the game needs to be readjusted in my opinion. Frankly some of your people are dicks about it.

In you guys trying so hard to win, you've made the game more of a members only club than it needs to be. Yes it is a clique game, but my high school had a lot of cliques, we generally got a long with our differences just fine. I think at a certain point you should let "winning" go and start thinking about the community. At least to a certain extent. 

The internet tough guy shit needs to go though.