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| Stuck Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Started by: Zephyr on Mar 09, '08 08:03 |
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This is going to be a simple question, and as such should elicit a series of simple answers. (Moaning, abuse etc do not qualify as answers. I hope we can engage in mature, adult debate instead.) Put yourselves in our shoes. We hear constant muttering about rogues. 95% of the time, this muttering turns out to be accurate. We are given recordings of damning coffee shop conversations. We see people training guns who don't tell us about it. We are, at the end of the day, interested in ensuring our survival and the protection of our families. If we were in this business for anything else, it would be a dereliction of duty. I'm sure we can all agree on that point. With the events of last night, you can understand our concerns about rogues and ranked guns who are trying to mask their identities and conceal their bloodlines. So really - What would you do? There are a number of available scenarios. Sitting back and doing nothing can, apparently, only have one result. Auths and loved ones from our families are gunned down. More people die without a family as a result. We fail in our duty to protect our families. But hey, at least we're playing 'fair'? Fair to who? It might be 'fairer' to behave this way from the perspective of someone who wants to kill us, but certainly not to people within our own families who work hard and earn the chance of auth. Or, we could get hardcore. We could clamp down on anyone walking around these streets 'incognito'. We could consistently hunt the sons of fathers who are known to want our downfall (Azrael was only one. There are many more that we know are walking our streets right now but that so far, we have left.) We could demote everyone we do not know and trust to Earner. The result? Undoubtedly, a backlash and a barrage of abuse. Accusations of dictatorships and tyranny would abound. But really, the situation would be of your own making. In that scenario, it certainly would be a small group of people ruining it for everyone else, but that small group of people wouldn't be us. You know exactly who you are, and if you force our hands like this, you can hardly act surprised and outraged when we move to protect our families the only way we can - by eliminating threats. But this is not a concrete proposal. I want to hear what members of this community would honestly do if they were in our position and faced with this unpalatable situation. At the end of the day, does it come down to a dichotomy between fairness for your family and those who work hard for you, or fairness for the few who are hell bent on your downfall? |
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I have to say of course I agree about the dutys of protecting your family should be second to none, although the sugestion of holding people at Earner would most certainly lead to the death of the game completely after all no one is going to be happy that there hard work is for nothing simply because they are not known by the big family heads. What about the little guy the new guy that wants to work his way up like Ralph for instance... I think maybe ranks should be looked at more now for what they mean quite simply do not rank someone to Mademan unless of course you are sure they are worthy of it but to hold everyone back in general is not the way to punish everyone for this small minority. We all chose this life of the mafia and we all know death is the only thing certain in our streets. I think its looked at the wrong way I mean if people earned more cash brought more bodyguards etc maybe they would be less of a target, I am in no way endorsing any rogue after all the idiot excuses for it I have seen as of late but this is a game of survival of the fittest. I know they kill peoples friends and family but so does any war. As I said death is the only thing that is certain in our lifes. Creeper |
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| Reply by: Creeper at Mar 09, '08 08:25 | |
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It's a very delicate situation. As you say, sitting back gives these rogues a free run at their plans, but a clamp down results in punishing far more innocents than there are guilty of plotting. If I'm not mistaken, for each of the recent rogues, we've also one or more who have been foiled before being able to make their move, so keeping your ear to the ground has not been entirely unsuccessful. It's just unfortunate that a couple were able to slip through the net and do damage. I, personally, think this is your best approach. There are enough loyal people that information is obviously finding it's way to you. However, a clamp down would only serve to provide these potential rogues with more sympathisers and give more worry in terms of threats. Lets face it, if a rogue is smart and has patience, they will no doubt get their chance eventually. I think you have to put faith in those around you to report what they hear, and also rely on the mistakes made by the schemers. Ultimately, of course, the decision is down to you few in power and you have to do your utmost to protect your only concern; your family. Everyone else just has to go along. |
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| Reply by: Turk at Mar 09, '08 08:39 | |
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Also I would like to add who would be the one choosing who they think diserves to be ranked or not? As I am sure we all know each family has there own friends and I am sure some of those are not liked by other familys. I am sure none of the current familys will be pleased with demoting half of there family who are there to protect the family in the first place leaving them pretty much defencless... I can't see how that system would work. Ok theres my two cents worth I hope you think my opinions are both valid and respectful after all I and another 98% of this game do actualy want our world to grow. Creeper |
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| Reply by: Creeper at Mar 09, '08 08:58 | |
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As we saw with the spate of deaths before last: Omar, Riley and others, Keeping one's ear to the ground, as Turk put it, is not entirely unsuccessful. A pre emptive gesture felling, say, nine out of ten rogues can be looked upon as "graiiiit saccesss" surely, but not so much when we consider the damage that can be dealt by 'the one that got away' Handing out promotions could be a solution, though a situation to offer is that, again, nine of out ten mobsters correctly held at WG or even earner can be looked upon as a good return, but again, when we consider that a single mistake could have shocking repercussions, this doesn't seem to be a fix so much as a delaying of the inevitable. Were I in this situation, I would do absolutely anything and everything I could to ensure the safety of my family. The state of the community and so on would come a distant second to the continued breathing of my members. If that meant I'd have to go 'bloodline hunting', to employ a new phrase, then bloodline hunting I'd go. I'm not necessarily saying this is the right thing to do, and I'm certainly not saying it's fair; but prevailing one's compadres must always be the priority. |
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| Reply by: Sprozza at Mar 09, '08 09:51 | |
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It's the sheep and wolves game. Do you become the sheep all cuddly and nice or the wolf and kill everything? Be both, be the wolf in the sheep clothing. This doesn't mean you have to deceive people, everyone will know that you are the wolf and if they can't figure it out then they don't deserve to know. If you suspect someone training their gun and not telling you about it, take away their gun. If they can't be respectful and responsible enough to share with their crew leader the information wanted from them then they do not deserve to carry around a gun. If a person is suspected to be apart of a rogue or underground group and things still seem fishy after they are confronted then their rank should be questioned. By either being demoted, held back or simply kept a close eye on. Doesn't seem fair does it, if the person is truly innocent, but then maybe they should take themselves out of the situation (i.e. secret coffee shops). I agree with Creeper, rank should definitely be looked at closer. Is this person doing the amount of donations fitted at their rank and wealth status? How active have they been in the streets, business districts and to their peers? Do I feel these people are putting as much effort into this family as I am? This thing really isn't that delicate, come on people it's the mafia. Not some kindergarten class where we all sing and hold hands. You chose this life, to honor and respect your crew leader. To respect every decision he or she makes and to follow what he or she says. If you do not do this you are putting yourself out there just asking for punishment. You are also making the family unsafe and as we all know the crew leaders most important job is to keep their family safe. If you are not helping them do this then you should be demoted, robbed of your gun or killed. Just as the crew leader lives for the family, the family members should live for the crew leader. There is also the subject of should new generations be punished for their fathers and mothers crimes? At this point it seems the new sons and daughters of the parents that had been in rogue and underground parties are not changing. They can't seem to shake their parents influences and continue to cause harm to each family they step foot in. If a person's relatives were in a dishonorable group they should definitely be watched and possibly even held back until they can truly prove that they have changed. That they realize that the people in power aren't actually all that bad and that the world does not revolve around them. After taking a sip of her morning coffee Eyzlee goes over what she just said in her head. After coming to the conclusion that she has nothing more to say at the time she walks over to Zephyr. She tells him that she loved his speech and thought it was a great idea of asking the public what they thought about all of this. With that done Eyzlee nodded goodbye and went off to catch the next flight out of town. |
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| Reply by: Eyzlee at Mar 09, '08 09:52 | |
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"It is better that ten innocent men suffer, than one guilty man escape." - Otto Von Bismarck. Yes, I did just use the pioneer of the unification of the German states in a mafia context. |
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| Reply by: Numbers4Glory at Mar 09, '08 10:00 | |
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grinding out his cigarette after listening to the replies following Zephyr's speech, Voulu steps up to voice his opinion Obviously, one's family not friends must come first. But, let's play devil's advocate for a moment. There are several people in this world of ours who play whatever side of the coin they feel is to their advantage at the moment - including things most of us have seen such as fake documents from coffeeshop conversations to witness statements. And one or two of them have rogues in their family history also as well as changing families when they are HSL etc. Our world has also always made a distinction between our world and coffeeshop friendships - why and when has this stopped? There are, I am told, many coffeeshop rooms that are simply for friends or kept in honor of now dead families and there are many hitsquad rooms or other family rooms separate from the main one. So is anyone who is in one of these suspect? Personally I would be more suspect of the motives of the persons who hang out in all rooms and give "copied" documents. Also, if we are to start eliminating or demoting all people with rogues in their family history, may I point out that 2 of our current leaders have several. Do we start with them or lower ranks? I think that due to recent events, we are all becoming a bit too quick to get parenoid and jump to action - as an example, an earner was killed this morning because he was "suspected" of pro whacking. He could have simply been told to go to bed if there was no proof. His brother came back and wanted an explanation as to what pro whacking was. This man was a noob and had no clue, he had not been ordered to his home city and being new to our world didn't think to do it automatically as some veterans might. And then of course there is the whole idea of "the sins of the father" etc., which again would bring me to the first paragraph. So, to wrap it up, obviously I agree with protecting our families but being very very careful in what way we swing that protection. |
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| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 12:03 | |
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This will come across harsh, because no one likes to be told it's their own fault, and that they are the ones to blame. Rogue come from your crew? That's your fault. 1) *YOU* blindly promoted them to the high ranks without proper research. 2) *YOU* promoted them without people vouching for them. 3) *YOU* didn't keep tabs on their guns. 4) *YOU* didn't HQ wack them, or bitchslap their rank when they broke your wack rules. Here are some suggestions. If you consider yourself a family, then you won't have a problem with number one above in the first place. You already know their name, stories about their pet, what they do for a living. You know who they are. Surely you guys are a family and not just some kid who has a basement full of underage asians working for 50 cents an hour mining mafia gold for you. For number two above, add in some accountability. If someone wants to be a mademan, he will have no problem getting his friends to vouch for him. When they fuckup, in ANY capacity, you kill everyone who vouched for them. This process works. You will find that people who fuckup a lot will not find people to vouch for them. You will find that people who have shady histories will not have people vouch for them. For number three and four above, it's not hard to see who has worked their guns. What kind of reward system are you offering for people reporting witnesses to you? None? Oh.. thats possibly why you only get a small percent of them. If one of your rules is that everyone must report their wacklists to you, and they lie about it or get caught... why are they alive? If anyone ever breaks any clearly stated rule, no matter how small... they NEED to be punished... After someone breaks a rule, they wait for punishment to determine one thing.... can they do it again? In the end, take responsibilities as leaders and actually know your family, they are not sheep, they are not sweatshop filled with 8 year olds. They are supposed to be your family. They are your children. Any kind of Mother or Father in real life who doesn't know shit about their family would find themselves in a courtroom hearing a judge say UNFIT! - TAKE THE KIDS AWAY. To even suggest punishing the entire site because the lot of you crewleaders can't handle your crews honestly disgusts me. |
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| Reply by: Squishy at Mar 09, '08 13:07 | |
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Whilst I agree with some of what you've said, parts demonstrate a very naive outlook. Good rogues don't break rules. They follow every rule so that they can reach the stage to do damage, making the issue about rule breakers non-existant. Whilst it would be grand if rogues wore a big sign announcing themselves, they tend to be covert and do whatever they can to convince you they're good honourable folk. Therefore, whilst it is fun to wag the finger and make out that rulebreakers have been sliding, that just isn't true. How can you keep a tab on a gun, that well, has one kill on it? Would you consider someone a rogue who had one kill? I know I wouldn't have before this. I will now, seeing how much damage they can achieve. Lesson learned. All crewleaders - not at fault. In fact, you'll notice that this rogue came from one of the captaincies. Please, stop bunching us all together with your sweeping and often unfounded statements. I'm really fucking sick of it. |
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| Reply by: Numbers4Glory at Mar 09, '08 13:32 | |
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"Put yourselves in our shoes. We hear constant muttering about rogues. 95% of the time, this muttering turns out to be accurate. We are given recordings of damning coffee shop conversations. We see people training guns who don't tell us about it. We are, at the end of the day, interested in ensuring our survival and the protection of our families. If we were in this business for anything else, it would be a dereliction of duty. I'm sure we can all agree on that point." ~ Zephyr Numbers4Glory... right there is where your argument ends. |
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| Reply by: Tide at Mar 09, '08 13:34 | |
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| Which part of my argument ends right there? | |
| Reply by: Numbers4Glory at Mar 09, '08 13:48 | |
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| Again with all due respect to Numbers4Glory, I would agree with you Tide. Also a captaincy family is part of the main family so therefore everyone should be known - I am in a captaincy crew but correspond with his leader frequently. I also know of a hitter who recently died who mugged a friend of mine without permission, their profile clearly stated no mugging and their was no request for permission. It was reported to her CL, yet her rank remained the same and she lived - yet was a high ranker who should have been way above such stupid stuff. | |
| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 13:48 | |
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Numbers4Glory. While you are saying that these people are sneaking up, Zephyr is stating that they basically know of what is going on. If you would read what I had highlighted there. You would see. I agree with Squishy here. If you are seeing these people making kills and not telling you. Usually there is something wrong and said person should not see past Wise Guy or confronted. You are both voiding out what eachother said. He says basically "We see these people doing wrong and hear about it on IRC from inside sources." and then you respond with a "These people are sneaky and we hardly never see it coming." |
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| Reply by: Tide at Mar 09, '08 13:53 | |
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After certain replies in this thread I'd honestly go out and punish the whole community. Keep anyone you have not personally become acquainted to at Earner and fuck what anyone else thinks. A rogue has just killed two Capo Crew Leaders with a gun trained via the Shooting Range. Are there Witness Statements sent out for this? So how can anyone monitor it? He was promoted to Made Man for a reason. It is not the business of the public or the Gods to know why. It is a in family matter. As has been said previously, If I wanted to go rogue I would comply with every rule in the book and try to distort my shot record as much as humanely possible. In fact I would be the absolute model member. My leader could think I was his best mate but i'd still buy out and shoot him if that was my aim originally. |
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| Reply by: bighead at Mar 09, '08 13:59 | |
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"It is a in family matter" reply by bighead True, in a lot of cases things like this are, but if he had no shooting record why was he a made man who in all possibility could not help defend his family should the need arise as noone knows for sure re shooting ranges. Also, this in family issue was brought to the streets by the family itself for discussion and opinions |
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| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 09, '08 14:05 | |
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| Are you saying you have to be a hitter to get promoted to mademan? | |
| Reply by: NeverSayDie at Mar 09, '08 14:08 | |
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Actually no, notice I start my point with "good". Look, I'll highlight it for you as you clearly missed it. Good rogues don't break rules. A rogue who never even makes it bold is not a good rogue. They are a very bad rogue. Good rogues are sneaky and you don't see it coming. My good friend Zephyr is saying that we do see people trying to train without telling us. You can see the obits for a reference as to who these are. They are not the good rogues I mentioned. I was saying that a good rogue, you don't hear a whisper about disloyalty or attempted plots, until they've gone bold. I would also point out that the part of my argument you feel died, was not even related to rogues are sneaking up on us. It was that rulebreakers are not sliding at all within any family I'm associated with, hence my comment about grouping us together... So really, none of my argument ended there. You chose a minute part of one point whilst ignoring the larger issue that bighead and I have highlighted. |
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| Reply by: Numbers4Glory at Mar 09, '08 14:08 | |
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You can't not promote people for not shooting man. Not everyone wants to be a hitman. There are high profile bloodlines around this thing of ours that never ever shoot but give other assets to their chosen families, or choose to spend their time conversing in the streets. There's more to this life than killing. |
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| Reply by: j0ngott1 at Mar 09, '08 14:11 | |
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You do not need to be a hitter to be a Made Man. There is plenty more you can do to prove yourself. Also, The issue brought to the street was where do we go from here. It was not a invitation to point out where the current leaders are going wrong. I dare say if any member of this community had made Squishys post they would be dead now. |
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| Reply by: bighead at Mar 09, '08 14:14 | |
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