Thank you for your statement, Father_TeQ. It is good to know the city of Detroit considers their Made members people of little importance. As much as I don't agree with ways of rogues, I have to admit this proves Key's main point about EvilClown.

As for the Made Man promotion, you might want to read some older newspapers.
Hands Father_TeQ a September issue of a World Changes magazine.

And please, leave the dog out of it.

WildRose... in less than 2 weeks those people's children will be back to where they were, only they will be heavily loaded up with defence (either through BG's or through defence answers) so will be much better equipped to deal with morons like that. The rogue will come back, aimlessly fire their gun and miss... wasting their own life and giving us a chance to enhance our guns further. All that happened last night is... it made us STRONGER.

As for the magazine.. i just said Azazel may be right, need me to scrawl it in red crayon for you to see?

I agree entirely Father_TeQ, the only problem there is that Wise Guy is not a promotion that has to be overseen by anyone. It can, as it were, happen all on it's own. The only solution to this as far as I see is to demote the person once they have enough clout with the FBN to be able to carry 24 units of drugs, but I'm sure that would only add fuel to the fire of the person being held back.

I can't say that I see a clear solution to this, definitely one to think on.

Oh and if Kee;s blood is who we think it is...

When your blood was tied to the city of NY, you city hosted MANY of Clown's family members bloodlines, myself included. So you're a bit of a hypocrite just to top it off.

So basically. The nail has been hit on the head by Teqqy. None of you are going to like me for saying this but after events of last night something must be done. The rank of Made Man, although meaning more than it used to, is now easier to get in my opinion. I have stated elsewhere my views on this. I cannot remember where. I said in that speech that the requirements to become a completely trusted man have been lowered from what they were.

When I say from what they were I mean in the early days of this world and the old world. Made was a ridiculous rank to achieve. Something to really be proud of. As soon as your FBN officer tells you that you can carry 25 units everyone expects it.

So, the suggestion. Time to go back to the ........... CP system. Thats right folks. That name pops up again. The way it works is this:

You are a Wise Guy. You need to have achieved all of the criteria your own Crewleader has set out. If this is the case you move on to the world wide criteria of needed two references from Made Man and above. They do not need to be in your crew. Just Made plus. These are handed in and put on to a world wide ledger. Should you then either be A: A massive asshat or B: A massive asshat that goes rogue. You die and both your references die. So not only are you responsible for your own life and hard work but two other peoples.

Granted. It's more work for leaders and not really up to me. Perhaps you could twist it and say that these references have to be given in when you become a WG or you are demoted back to Earner to save the 'Kee situation' returning. Obviously it is the Godfathers councils decision but one I am sure that something will come out of.

As for Kee. I shouldn't really do this. It's totally against the grain. As much as I despise what he did to the people of Detroit. In his death I can offer respect. Not for his reasons. Not for his choices. But for the way he worked it. That is the first time in a very long time we have seen a successful rogue. No I don't cordone it but I can respect it.

Ahh, placing the lives of friends in each others hands. No better way to control the masses. It also most likely won't stop rogues, it will just make them appear in groups of three. I don't know about you, but dealing with one rogue at a time sounds much easier.

"So not only are you responsible for your own life and hard work but two other peoples."

That's the real problem of that system. At that point, he'd do more damage just to get his targets to vouch for him, and wouldn't even have to kill them himself. The reference system was flawed on every level, because you're implying that the rogue actually cares about the people he manipulates to support him; which is a very VERY silly assumption.

I think all we can really do is actively hunt this man and his friend, as at this point they are a danger to any city their next of kin joins. Bringing back the reference system because of two rogues is going to hurt more than it helps.

But if three people were going to go rogue, they would do it in our current system as well Azazel. At least with the method Gene suggested, we may put off a few potential rogues as their friends won't be roguing and won't be willing to sacrifice their lives for them.

I think you'll find that they won't. The method is tried and trusted. It works.

You will not get someone giving references for Made Man unless they have been in a pact from the start to go rogue. In which case. They will go rogue regardless of the system. All 3 of them and there is no way of stopping them UNLESS they leak. You have three chances of a leak instead of one and it would require three pro wackers. More fund the whole lot. Usually the best rogues are those that work alone.

Which brings me round to the impulsive rogue. Who buys out and shoots. All well and good currently. You get punished and thats the end of it. But with this system you not only lose your life. But your friends life and more than likely that friendship. Your own pig headedness has caused your mates, who have worked hard, to die on your little vendetta where, in reality, you will achieve pretty much nothing.

Making people responsible for not only themselves usually causes a bit more level headedness in us all.

I remember reading old journals where someone went rogue, died and because of that their crew leader was killed for it.

All this talk of having someone or multiple people vouch for the person to receive made is already there. The crew leaders, RHM LHM, sponsers. These people have already vouched for someone to get their made badges.

So instead of adding more people into the mix, why not just cut off the head that rogue came from?

while genes mention of the vouching for made men works it doesnt remove the wiseguy buyout hq purchase promotion to mademan

It does when I said that it could perhaps happen at Wise Guy.

Although I agree to a point Althalus. You and I both know it can be easy to dupe these people. In the olden days they were not allowed to vouch. Perhaps now one of them MUST vouch?

Oh indeed it can be very easy to dupe them, but who's fault is that really the duper or the duped? Okay we can all agree that there are those who are or have been in the past prone to rogue. Generally they are monitored more closely than those who's past aren't so murky.

But is this an example of upper structures taking their eye off the ball, or does it come back to the fact that crewleaders are more concerned with how much money can be brought in, valuing that over the risks of a member going rogue?

At the end of the day, a Crewleader vouching for someone by promoting them to Made Man is more than enough. If the Crewleader is decent and cares well for their members and builds relationships with them, then these people will be just as discouraged to rogue if they know that their actions might lead to their leader's death. It would also stop leaders handing out Made Man promotions like candy. At least it would, in theory.

The problem is that there is no tried and tested method for finding rogues is there? I mean if you were to simply hold them back at Wise Guy (a move which would be completely ineffective due to the changes in our world) isn't this likely to just cause more discontent among those who probably would not rogue anyway? I think it would be naive to suggest that crewleaders are at fault for members going rogue, most are intelligent and very good at hiding their intentions, and it's an extremely difficult job. I understand the point of bringing more value to the Made Man rank, but I think this has been taken out of our control by the Gods with those world changes. I think the bigger issue here is Gene's statement that this was the first rogue in a long time to have any kind of success. With that in mind, why fix a system that isn't broken?

Tristan, how are the crewleaders not at fault? These are the people who are responsible for THEIR members actions, these are the people who have promoted them time and time again, these are the people that give 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances to lines which are known to cause trouble.

Now don't get me wrong, I like a good rogue every now and then, it's one of those necessary evils that we just have to accept and deal with. Most of the time they are ineffective, flashes in the pan and die not long after opening their HQ. But then there are those that spring up and do have some impact, either by killing or by bringing an issue that is bubbling under the surface to the forefront.

What I ask is where is the line of responsibility drawn? In the past crewleaders have died for much less than a member going rogue, those days are in the past now. But what if we were to bring some of that back? Instead of having the situation we are in right now, where everyone sits round the table, laughing, joking, counting their stacks of bills that their members bring in. Have them being diligent as to what is happening in our streets, our business districts.

The streets for me is getting far to open, almost anyone can come out here and say damned near anything without fear of reprisal. In the past there were always certain bloodlines who did this, as FatherTeQ has said sometimes his line got away with it, sometimes they didn't.

But in the past week we had a clear example of a capo, trawling the name of a dead crewleader through the mud, there were others there who even supported it. At what point are the crewleaders actually going to accept responsibility where they need to?

If someone wants to rogue, they will rogue. Sometimes it is behind the power of the leaders. Having said that all cities need to be doing something to make sure potential rogues are not helped out by being given Made promo's in ceral boxes. Every crew should (i fucking hope so anyway) have some sort of requirements for associates to gain before being given their button, but are these requirements enough? I would like to see a generic system across all cities, set requirements needed for members. You could argue that that takes away the whole 'we'll run our family how we want' aspect but at least then if a rogue was to occur we know all cities are singing off the same hymn sheet and that rogue has been through the same system as any other made member.

The suggestion Gene makes doesn't sit too well with me at all. It will cause mark harm than good, as it did when previously tried during the dark CP days. I would take that idea and put a twist on it. In order to be given Made Man there must be 3 established made members vouch for the associate, if he then gets promoted and fucks up the 3 who vouched for him are demoted back to an associate themselves and have to go through the process again themselves. Killing them would be way too much, there is only so much one can do. Implementing an idea as just explained would make potential rogues think again. Rogues are suicidal but would they really want to see their friends and family members punished because of their selfishness? I think not.

As for kee, i suggest each crew look out for him, his intentions are obvious and the consequences could be bad for anyone found to be harbouring his next of kin, whether the are knowing of it or not. The actions of kee were despicable, he has a problem with EvilClown so he shoots his members, why not put a bit more effort in and shoot the clown yourself? I know if i wanted a crewleader dead i sure as hell wouldn't shoot innocent members, I'd go for the person i had a problem with. one word for kee: coward.

Althalus, it's not always clear what bloodline someone is from though, is it? And it's not as if every member of a rogue bloodline goes rogue at every single opportunity? What if a member of a bloodline that has never gone rogue, decides to? Does the leader still die for it? In which case what would stop someone joining a family they disliked, and proving themselves enough to get the Made promotion simply because them going rogue would now inevitably lead to a CLs death; a far bigger effect than a rogue currently has right now. At the end of it all, there isn't really a lot leaders can do. You can hold someone back, but realistically if our world is not to stagnate, people being held back is the only real option. And given that as I mentioned before, rogues are capable of being both deceitful and intelligent, how would a leader even discern their intentions from this? Unrealistic expectations are being placed here, which will lead to more death than the rogue would cause, which is why I do not agree.

In addition, the vouching system would only serve to drive away new bloodlines. If this sytem was brought in, I for one would only vouch for the 2-3 bloodlines I know I can trust time and time again to come through to me, what madman would vouch for a new bloodline given how easy it would be to deceive somebody about who you really are?

The streets for me is getting far to open, almost anyone can come out here and say damned near anything without fear of reprisal. In the past there were always certain bloodlines who did this, as FatherTeQ has said sometimes his line got away with it, sometimes they didn't.

But in the past week we had a clear example of a capo, trawling the name of a dead crewleader through the mud, there were others there who even supported it. At what point are the crewleaders actually going to accept responsibility where they need to?

I do however completely agree with this sentiment.

Tristan in this day and age it's not hard to figure out who comes from what bloodline with enough investigating. It's easy to pull on a mask and call yourself something. But the hard part is detaching from who you are. We each have our own style of talking, some are easy to pick out, others not so easy. The hard part for going incog with the hopes of going rogue is keeping yourself hidden fully.

Also I would say this, gaining entry to an organisation as an associate should require some form of scrutiny. However while that can be easily bypassed, when it comes to made man promotions there should be more in depth examination as to who someone is, where they come from.

As I have said, which is something that has been lost over the years. It is the crewleaders responsibility to ensure that they are in control of their organisation and that they know each member of their inner family like family. As for it having a bigger effect, hell yeah it would. In my eye's it would be a great effect too. The ball would be firmly in the crewleaders court and they would have to be more careful with the decisions they take, they would have to actually accept the responsibility that goes along with the bold suit.

I have unrealistic expectations, I'll agree with you. I long for a world where someone is actually in charge, is actually willing to step up to the plate and say "hey look at me, I'm the big shot, problem with that, bring it" Someone who actually has the testicular or in a womans case not so much testicular fortitude to run this place.

God, I miss dictatorships.