Why would anyone with good intentions quit or revolt when asked for references to get one step closer to being a trusted man in the family? The place where all should aspire to be?

Because demoting people from Wise Guy means the person keeps getting pushed back. Under the current system a mobster can sit at Wise Guy and continue to progress, gaining new units and aging, while the Made people in his crew make their judgments so when the time comes all your work was not in vain. To continually demote someone while they're being vetted is asking someone to keep going backwards until the Made people feel comfortable. I wouldn't put up with that. That would be enough to make me seek another form of work.

I agree with Blutarsky. To continually demote someone every time they hit Wise Guy is going to cause more problems than it solves. People will not put up with it and in the end will revolt in one way or another. I also see another problem with your system, would this not mean someone would need to be around every time someone in the crew hit the minimum time requirement for Wise Guy? This would be a pain to make sure someone is around every 3 days for one person, but imagine if there were 5 people all changing at different times. People have different sleeping patterns around here (OOC: Time Zones) which may make it hard for someone to always be online at the point the person in question would be promoted to Wise Guy.

Just a couple of points really.

The part I really don't get here is why say "If a rogue acted alone then credit is due where credit is due".

First off, it's apparantly evident that the rogue didn't work alone and had help. Also, what credit at all is due for a rogue? NONE.

There is no credit due for a rogue because the act of going rogue is inherently shameful and widely destable regardless of the intentions. If you are upset about the way things are and have serious issues that you can't bear, going rogue is not the option. Leave these shores for awhile come back later. Get some nice long R & R.

Or better yet, use that energy to create positive change.

On a side note, giving this thread all this attention is in a fact giving attention or in other words "credit" to a man whom deserves none of this. I write this here to steer people away from replying here anymore. Refusing his attention seeking hunger will starve him and we won't have to put up with his presence here for much longer.

Please Please Please, take the time to stop and think out your actions before you act, especially in this world where your actions are your honor and respect and within seconds you can lose all you've worked hard to gain so please reconsider going rogue and work for positive change because that is really what we need the most. Think a leader is donig a bad job work your ass off and try to get your own position of leadership and show them how you think things should be done with your positive actions not negative ones.

That is all I have to say to this matter and if you choose to respond to me here know that I will no longer be giving this thread anymore attention than I already have,

Thank you,

Vote for for Herm!

I suppose you could only have to catch them before they get the minimum requirements as outlined by the Gods to achieve the rank of Made Man so you you'd have time to demote them. It still would result in people losing their units and seniority. I got into this business to make money, not just make a living. I would have chosen a safer profession if I just wanted to make a living. No, I want to make lots of money. Something you don't do when you're first starting out. You have to put in your work and pay your dues to grow to the point where you can make lots of money. If I'm being asked to sit in a system that continually strips me of that hard work and those dues and keep doing it over and over again I think I would just pick a safe profession and settle for making a living. I don't think I'd be alone in this.

Eh? Sorry. I am completely baffled here. Really I am.

You have have from the time you hit our shores until 1 minute before you hit minimum time for Made Man to provide two references. One can be your CL and one can be the RHM if they so wish. They can be another Made Man in another crew. They can be anyone. If you have been too fucking lazy to go out and get to know two people, and thats only if you're completely new here, then you don't really deserve Made Man in my eyes.

If you go out and follow the rules it really will not be that hard.

What it will be hard to do is pull an incognito and let's be fair here. The only people who pull incognito are those who have done something seriously wrong. It will also stop the 'gung ho' rogue who doesn't care about his life but what of those who vouched for him.

Again, to emphasise, You will not continually be held back if you go out and interact with your crew or this world. You would only be held back if you're a monkey and you all know what I mean by that.

Good day.

"The only people who pull incognito are those who have done something seriously wrong?"  What about those who had to leave or be incognito during the last days of Roman?  Those who's bloodlines were banned from working in all cities?  I can't believe where I'm hearing this from.  

Any kind of total ban/referral system relies too much on those in power.  Because with a referral system not only are you saying "this guy is a good guy" you're also saying "this guy is ok with the current managment and will take no action against it".  Like we saw with Roman, a total banning system is not just "this guy is an asshole," rather, "this guy is an asshole to me and my friends". 

Thankfully those were were banned from our world I believe have pretty much all come back.  I would venture to say you work closely with some of them and know them to be ok guys. 

On top of all of this....if you're a CL and have 50 members, how many are you going to vouch for?  What if after 2 months a few CL's have died due to poor referrals.  How many will you vouch for then?  What if you're new, or want to pretend you're new?  Are you going to form an unbreakable trust/friendship with a few people within 15 days?  Can you imagine a new guy coming here, doing well, then he finds out he has to start over?  I think I'd go open a legit business after that.

Yeah I don't agree with any of Gene's speech at all. A new person here has 11 days to get to know people enough that they are willing to trust them with their lives. 11 days for that sort of bond? I don't know about anyone else, but as I mentioned before, I'd refer the 3 or so bloodlines I know would never fuck me over and refuse to reference anyone else at all because quite frankly it wouldn't be worth the risk. Add in the relative ease to which someone can go incognito (OOC: I do notice I'm the only one that seems to argue this point, it would seem to be that unless you post in the streets in a ridiculously unique writing style, many people here are simply unidentifiable?) and all of a sudden rogues are doing more damage than they were before these proposed changes. The system isn't broken, no need to fix it.

What I don't understand is why people are calling for some sort of "letters of recommendation" system but then also refusing to provide me with negative references! How am I supposed to know who deserves my positive recommendations if I'm not being told anything about that person's past? If I'm going to put my credibility on the line for my employees, I think I should know more about them. There have been allegations here about one particular family being subpar employees -- but who is this family? I don't understand why, if it's important to have accurate references, it shouldn't also be public knowledge when there are negative references.

Without that information, what conclusions can we draw? It seems to me that either the people leveling the allegation don't have any proof, or they are playing underhanded games in order to try to throw a "gotcha!" at someone down the line if they are discovered to be associated with this family. But then how much blame can we properly assign, since it was the failure to give readily available information that contributed to the misstep?

Serious allegations have been made: I'd like details. It's not fair to the accused to say "something sketchy happened" but then refuse to offer any details or supporting information. Trust me on that, I know this full well from personal experience.

Tito, You hearing this from somebodies bloodline who hasn't been back that long. So believe it.

You are not relying on anyone in power. You are relying on your own skills to know someone, prove yourself to your family and friends. Just because the Gods allow Made Man in 11 days does not mean you HAVE to be Made in 11 days. You do not need to have the leaders saying I do not accept your two referrals. They accept them without reason our question. It is entirely the referees call.

The fact of the matter is. Crewleaders should be dying if their Made Men are fucking up. Thats exactly how it should be. He is an extension of you. You trust him to give him his button then you trust him on EVERYTHING else. It doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Tristan. Thanks. You have said exactly what needed to be said:

A new person here has 11 days to get to know people enough that they are willing to trust them with their lives. 11 days for that sort of bond?

Exactly. 11 days for that sort of bond? Are you joking? SO why is everyone Made within these 11 days? Why is it not taking longer? If you're not happy doing it then why on earth is everyone expecting to be made in that time?

The system isn't broke on the rogue front. I think it's completely broken on the Made Man front. No-one seems to accept whats been accepted for years and now it's just another rank.

I have in the past, in this very discussion, advocated what you've just said there. Made Man should not just be another rank. But nor should it need this referencing system which the more I think about, the more I believe to be fundamentally shit for the state of our world. This system does absolutely nothing to address the issue of how fundamentally easy it is for a bloodline to go incognito, and basically I'm just repeating myself here. Absolutely no merit to it at all, and I'll resume this discussion if anyone cares to address this point? Because suggesting that Made Man should be more than just another rank and introducing a referencing system are worlds apart.

Actually Tristan if a referencing system was put into place it would make Made Man more than just another rank. As the way things stand it is far to easy to get mademan, hell it always has been far to easy to get. Some crewleaders in the past have put more than the required achievements to reach this rank, I recall from journals that some families had a clause that to reach this rank you had to have made some attempt at making yourself known by your voice. However as we have seen in the past this had led to a string of wiseguys coming to the streets with granted some decent conversations but others that quite frankly weren't up to task, yet still those who put in the least effort were able to obtain the one rank that signifies that you are now a trusted and fully valued member of a family.

What I can hear from those against the idea of references is that they are lazy and can't be arsed trying to network themselves to get known by a mere handful of people. There are those who have in the past gone of to be consigs and dons who have been veritable nobodies, this is a practice that in my opinion needs to be stopped.

Gene the problem is you're not merely advocating we take the Made Man promotion more seriously.  You're suggesting a referral system, and demoting any Wise Guy who doesn't have the proper references when they have been working 12 days.  Unless I misunderstood you earlier? 

Apologies, I haven't articulated myself clearly. By worlds apart, I simply meant that a referencing system is an extreme method of ensuring Made is more than just another rank, and one which I don't think is necessary at all. Let's assume for a moment that you're right, and that new and incognito bloodlines are now going to have to work a lot harder to get Made, while the bloodlines that are known by the leader are not, is this even necessarily a good thing?

The majority of us have a leader in mind when we decided to start picking pockets and robbing 7-11s, and the reason for this is because they were friends of our ancestors. Using a reference system just means that those ancestors simply bypass the entire system to begin with and the same bloodlines rise to the top far more quickly than the newer bloodlines would, which I believe will only lead to stagnation.

Once again though, none of this solves the issue of the fact that an incognito bloodline with the intention of rogueing is now guaranteed two deaths upon turning Made, something which was unlikely before these changes were implemented. I know that you and I are going to continue to disagree on this fundamental part of the argument Althalus, but it is 100% the way I believe things will be and for this reason, I see a referencing system as a very dangerous and unnecessary thing to be implemented into our world

You understood me perfectly.

The way the world works at the moment Made Man is an under valued rank. I don't think I am going to change that. In fact, I know I'm not going to change that. It is entirely the leaders criteria. I am not a leader and therefore it's not my decision to make.

But I do feel if people have to go out and network themselves, get to know people both in the streets and in their own HQ you can be more confident in promoting people to that rank. Not just so you can feel 'safe'. But also so you know that they are generally deserving of the rank.

Tristan feels it is easy to incognito. I disagree. I think to keep it up for 11/12 days is hard work and a lot more than many people will do and even then you may not get your referees to make the rank of Made. Thats just the way it goes. You obviously have not worked hard enough to get to know people. A lot can be said in 11/12 days. Certainly enough for Made Man to stand in these streets now so why can it not be taken out the leaders hand and people given the responsibility.

It will raise street activity. Raise activity in the HQs and make this place talk a lot more outside the coffee shops.

The Godfather council have shown they have level heads. I honestly believe that you will never see a bloodline held back because of who they were. Only because of who they are now. A referral system will show peoples true colours far far better than the current system.

I don't see how it would people's true colors better at all. It's not like someone joining with the intention of going rogue couldn't just bullshit people and pretend to be a good family member. Unless you're advocating the requirement of bloodline disclosures which will not only stifle the progress of new people that don't have a bloodline history and force them out of this way of life but would really only be a precursor to bloodline bans.

Can you really say that if you were in a position where you had to decide to vouch for someone who's father and grandfather had gone rogue but hadn't done anything to earn distrust to this point that you would vouch for him? I know that I wouldn't put my life on the line with those odds.

It's not just that, you wouldn't even be certain if someone's father or grandfather HAD gone rogue? Like I've said multiple times, I wouldn't vouch for anyone but the 2 or 3 bloodlines I know I can trust with anything. Which is only going to stifle business, which is the complete opposite of what we want in this world.

A referencing system simply does not give everyone a fair shot.

Looking around the Streets, it seems clear that a relative of tiggy was involved in Kee's actions.  And that relative of Kee was of a very low rank, standing and status.  But, so the rumour goes, had some swap with other places and was able to assist in ways that virtually nobody else can.

As usual.. You are wrong.

I have it on very good authority that I am very much correct.  

Do you have any proof to the contrary?