BlackBlack seemed as a person a cool dude, but at the end of the day disrespecting funeral's is straight fucked up no matter which way you look at it. I don't think people are saying he was a bad guy, but when you act like that on the dead is very frowned upon.

I am just so surprised that this is still going on what is or what is not respectful. Godfather Chairman Curtis felt it was time to punish him for actions and it happened. There is no coming back from that period.  

out here publicly criticising your godfather in such brash fashion is about as disrespectful as it gets. It's not a good way to represent yourself.

The fact that this even needs to be debated goes to show just how far up your arses some of your heads are lodged.  I stopped listening after the first round of comments, because my tolerance for stupidity had reached its capacity.  When you speak about "rules", what you are really talking about are two things: 1. Mandates put forth by the powers that be, which are to be followed by those who answer to that person; and 2. Traditions of Cosa Nostra - "rules" which are bigger than any one individual. Rispetto is a pillar of Cosa Nostra. Without it, we are common thugs.  When a Boss gets bumped off by his underlings, the usual reason is because there is a consensus belief among the underground that the Boss has breached our way of life or is otherwise conducting himself in a way which "isn't good for business". If such a system can be used and justified for underlings to "take care of" their own Boss, it can be used wherever it may apply. So, like I was saying, these rules are bigger than anyone.

They are most certainly bigger than some upstart in an undeveloped city. There is no need to discuss whether it was "right" or "fair". If you think those concepts have any place in our society, well...that's a discussion for another day.

I think the main part your missing Sammy, is that whilst it is considered funeral disrespect, and lets make absolutely fucking no mistake, it has been considered funeral disrespect.. then it really doesn't matter a single fuck whether it was LA, NY or the fucking Moon. Members of La Cosa Nostra do NOT allow for funeral disrespect and that is the singular reason why BlackBlack is now deceased.

I think he handled himself well in his time in LA, except from the one obvious problem. Curtis seems to agree as he said as such.

You've spent all day telling people your own opinion that what he did wasn't disrespectful, the basis of the argument being that the next of kin from the family' aren't bothered by the act and you seem to think the next of kin are all that matters.

Do you think the next of kin is ever consulted by a Godfather when a core rule of our society is broken? I certainly don't. Do you think that LA being it's own City with it's own rules means that they can then ignore the core rules of our fucking society? I fucking don't.

So lets be clear, once and for all, what BlackBlack did IS considered disrespect of the funerals of not just one, but two Crewleaders. He is dead due to that. No amount of telling us your opinion on the matter will ever change the reason he died.

We are all entitled to our opinions and it's very clear that a lot of people are of the belief that his actions were wrong. So I think it is probably about time that we all stopped debating back and forth whether or not what he did was right or wrong, because the people that decide whether it is right or wrong have already made up their mind and that decision was clear.

Templar listens to Godfather Curtis' speech and makes his way forward to the front to listen in some more...

"Whilst I totally agree with what Godfather Curtis has said I find it unbelievable that he has had to take the time out of his busy schedule to state the bloody obvious, when a person dies no matter for whatever reason they have paid their dues to society so to have people then go to their funeral and show blatant disrespect is quite frankly appalling, no disrespect at funerals has been a fundamental part of our world since the dawn of this thing of ours, its nice to see someone in power who has the right moral code and who WILL enforce our old rules"

Tipping his hat to Curtis, Templar goes about his daily business happy in the knowledge that bullshit like this will be dealt with appropriately and promptly.

i can agree, it's grtting repetitious and boresome spinning in circles. So I'll be done after this one way or another.

If it's a sign of respect and viewed as one by the family, then it's not disrespect, that's plain and fucking simple. We were told it was a sign of respect and then a kin to one of the fallen CLs came out and said they viewed it as one as well. That now becomes a fact that it wasnt meant as disrespect and that it wasn't fucking disrespect. I mean fucking hell..

I was led to believe that it was decided LA was like their own little country that had a few guidlines that were listed to be followed. Now it's been determined that they can't do anything that goes against popular opinion because it effects the community. Essentially their limited to the same things we all are, LA is nothing special. I thought it might be something different and unique compared to the same old shit. My opinions are a mixture of being let down and disagreement. Boofuckinghoo right?

If I misunderstood what LA was all about then I guess that's on me. I'm not misunderstanding anything about the other half of my debate though. The facts are in and while they differ from popular opinion, they're facts. Tough shit that you don't agree with the facts of the matter but the beautiful thing about facts is that they don't change. Again, what its viewed as and what it was meant and seen as by those involved are opposites.

Yes I get it, people in power can do what they please. What everyone else fails to grasp are the actual facts of the matter, not the fucking opinions rattling around in their heads.

Let's complete the circle.

The person who did what's in question said it was a sign of respect and that he held no ill will towards the people who slaughtered his family and tried to kill him. The kin to one of the CLs came out and said he viewed it as a sign of respect, which it was meant to be. It seems to me and logic that this was not disrespect but a kind of out of the box way to show respect to someone (outside of the box thinking was something I thought was encouraged in LA, which is why it even had me interested.).

And still, you think you are talking about facts. You fail to see that its simply all still opinions on both sides.

Marking a persons casket is not respectful. And yes, if you were daft enough to think that such acts would be permitted simply because the person was in LA, then you only have yourself to blame for being mislead as you clearly don't understand this way of life. The leaders of LA have free reign of the city. They can do what they like with the city. That doesn't mean that they can ignore simple rules of this thing of ours which could cause issues through the entire country. If leaders are saw doing this kind of thing and left unpunished, how then could we hold others to the same standard?

The reason its an unwritten rule is because it's something people should have the common sense not to break. A leader above anyone else should be aware of that.

It seems to me and logic that this was not disrespect but a kind of out of the box way to show respect to someone (outside of the box thinking was something I thought was encouraged in LA, which is why it even had me interested.).

This brings me back full circle again to the whole respect thing and following on from your comment - is painting the HQ a sign of respect? Do you honestly really believe that it was the intention of BlackBlack to show respect by painting the HQ? No. He painted the HQ as a warning to others in LA that this is what will happen should you attack him. There is absolutely no issue in my opinion with him doing that to the building. It's a fucking building. But he then escalated things when he started painting a casket. Sure, he left some nice words in the ear of the dead to paint it as being a nice send off (pardun the pun), but painting the casket was simply a continuation of what he did before with the HQ, he is marking the dead to show others what would have happened had they attempted to kill him.

This, is logic. He did the same thing to the HQ as he did to the casket, you can't surely sit there and think he did both as a mark of respect? Regardless, these are simply my views. I appreciate you have your own. Like you though, I'm done with the topic now as I think i've made my position extremely clear and also the reasons for it.

SammyCrooks,

BlackBlack lowers his gun for a second time today and holsters it. He lights up a cigarette and walks towards the dead body of @Richard_Watterson before ashing on it.

Is this also some secret sign of respect that nobody else is privy to? 

Nope Latin. Absolutely no respect shown in here. Sounds like a too loud expressed satisfaction to have killed one of his attackers to me. Unless of course the attacker was the defender. Who cares anyway, both would be in the rules. But not evrybody can be a silent killer, and no one should disrespect his dead victim. Let it just be another lesson for other mafiosos.

The hand-wringing here is absolutely fucking outrageous. We have had more discussion over a few pseudo-CL's dying on the west coast than we did over the utter implosion that occurred in Chicago a while back and I'm struggling to understand why. In particular, I'd like to single out Bolton and SammyCrooks for displaying such mind-boggling idiocy that I must assume assume it's ironic and deliberate in nature; no-one, surely is able to misunderstand and misconstrue on quite such a consistent basis.

I wrote on the topic of respect a while ago. I spoke how it had two forms - respect for a 'standard' or a position, or respect for an individual. Now, I don't need to respect your position here, but you may feel I am being openly disrespectful to you as individuals. You'd be right. In the first instance, you are both exhibiting characteristics I would associate fucking morons. Second, your arguments are weak and churlish. Third, even the weakest argument can be a success with subtlety and nuance, you were unable to do this either. Every response you've made to this speech have gone further and further to convince me that you deserve open mockery for your bitterness, naivety and utter delusion as to how this world works.

When you die though (and I say when because you are apparently unable to state an opinion without pissing people off), I won't attend your funerals to say what fucking idiots you were. I'll bow my head and I'll pay my respects; not because I respected you as people, but because I respect the institution.

Sammy, this is a distinction you are unable to grasp, apparently. Is it up for the descendants of the individual to decide whether they've been disrespected at a funeral? No, the disrespect is visited upon all of us, so it is a decision the community will take collectively. Let me address you further, Sammy, as you seem only to be able to understand and/or follow rules that are highly literal - so critical you are of the fact that funeral disrespect is an 'unwritten rule'. Let me give you another; acting like a fucking moron often ends in death. You don't find that in the city rules and yet it's something most of us are aware of, in the backs of our minds. 

In Philadelphia, incidentally, Tetley merely states "Follow your crews rules on what you are allowed to shoot whilst in Philly.". Now, do you think if an HQ in LA didn't have rules on shooting, a member of LA would be able to then shoot up Philadelphia? Would Tetley shrug his shoulders and say 'well, technically, he followed our city rules and that's within the boundaries of the contest'. No, of course not. Nobody would reasonably think that because they have the logic and reasoning ability to see that not everything is absolutely literal, and furthermore have the reasoning ability to read between the lines. There is a parallel to be drawn here with the 'unwritten' nature of funeral disrespect. In other words, if anyone believed that LA would be expect from such a basic standard, they were a fool. Anyone who tries to then defend that person is equally a fool.

I enjoyed the 'news flash' that LA isn't Curtis' city, Bolton. Here's a counter-newsflash. Yes it is, it's Curtis' city and it's every other Godfather/Acting Godfather's city. These people didn't go to  set up in LA because they could; they went because the Godfather Commission allowed them to with the creation of this contest. There's a reason Godfather is not permitted within the city. Those on the west coast can decide their own policy, sure, provided it is 'domestic' policy. The issue of funeral disrespect is neither domestic, nor a policy.

Godfather Curtis appeared in the plaza of Las Angeles and seeing a banner arise in the centre of the plaza. Nighthawk_ took a step closer to see the banner read:

Respect The Dead!

 Surrounded by a large number of the community, murmurs started coming from the crowd facing Godfather Curtis, while others were shocked to see such a deafening title. Nighthawk_ decided to pitch in on this very recent unveiling of poor manners and untaught rule breaking by one of Los Angeles fallen leaders. 

'My bloodline hasn't been around for that long, compared to the other vets that grace these shores, however I find it despicable that a reminder has to be given to the masses about respecting the dead. As thoroughly discussed by Don Guevara, respect comes in many forms, however there is certain and exemplary grounding for these forms'.

Nighthawk_ takes a deep breath and continues.

'To see fellow members of our society come out here and plead that the death of Consigliere BlackBlack was unjust is terrifying. Los Angeles has been opened up to the masses as a lawless state, however we all still follow a code where respect, and in this instance respecting the dead, is absolutely paramount to how we lead our lives. I hope that whoever has come out here to vent their frustration at the actions that Godfather Curtis has taken in the last 24 hours are given what they rightly deserve, as this violates everything we live for in this world of ours. 

Nighthawk_ walks off into the distance and onto the first flight back to Philadelphia to attend to business. 

Pull head from fucking ass, people. The LA Wild West rules stated that outside cities were not to interfere with LA affairs, nor have they. It did not grant LA total immunity or grant them the freedom to slap us all in the face by desecrating the casket of Friends of Ours in front of us while we stand in attendance to pay our respects among the likes of the dead's family and loved ones. A gross misinterpretation of the freedoms being an LA member affords you if you think men and women of prominence would sit at a funeral service and look on helplessly and in horror as somebody dumps a bucket of paint on a lifeless body we are in attendance to mourn.

I have no reason to believe the kin of the deceased were appreciative of having paint dumped on their casket, aside from BlackBlack saying they were grateful to have it happen. And SammyCrooks, even as worldly as the mighty Batiatus is, I am not familiar with a culture that appreciates having paint poured on their warm corpse in front of friends and family at a funeral. But if a culture does exist where that is the case, I can assure you Richard_Watterson did not hail from it. That is not my opinion, that is a fact.

BlackBlack chose to enter a funeral and dump a bucket of paint on a casket. The community chose not to tolerate it. There is no rule that made anyone immune from that. Since when is a funeral a city specific affair?

Roxie has always listened to what is being said on the streets.  Most of it is rather interesting and some is just a lot of bullshit.  She would just listen and take it all in but very rarely would she speak up. She gains enough courage and decides to speak her mind. She slowly starts to walk to the front of the crowd.  She stops and gestures for a puff off a man’s cigar.  He passes it to her and she takes a couple of puffs, continues to walk letting the smoke out of her mouth.  She approaches the front of the crowd.   A nice gentleman helps her up on a table so she can gain a little height over the crowd.

Good afternoon everyone.  If I just could have a minute of your time. 

She clears her throat and begins to speak.

There is some disagreement on how people should respond to deaths, with one faction believing that it's not appropriate to speak ill of the dead, no matter how odious the deceased may have been. Others feel that it's perfectly fine to say whatever you want, no matter how tasteless those comments may be.

I have been raised to keep silent about the nasty side of the recently deceased.  Generally, if I can't say something nice, I just offer condolences and leave it at that.

When we live amongst some of the sickest and most ruthless gangsters around some have the tendency to become morally bankrupted.

To have unwritten rules on moral behavioral leaves an open door for some to interpreted how they are applicable to their lifestyle.  Especially in an atmosphere created where anything goes.

You have rectified this matter by establishing a rule asking that we respect the family members in their time of bereavement over a loved one, that their loved one have a peaceful home going.  For some the written rule wasn’t necessary but obvious not to all.

If we were to start going around killing people for all the low life and unsavory things they did we will be digging a lot of graves?

With all due respect Godfather Curtis in one breathe you commend his woks, then place no worth on his life and ability to make amends for what some felt was foolish  and despicable behavior.

A man is only as good as his reputation.  If Blackblack life had been spared his reputation would have been tarnished.  He would have lived with no respect, never to be befriended by any other mafia faction until once again he proved himself, if ever.   In my opinion because I value a man’s life that sentence could have be worse than death.

As Roxie looks around at the faces of those in the crowd and hears the whispers of how other ancestors were once treated when they met their demise she knows that this is food for thought. That others did not did not abide by this  unwritten rule.

The recent events haven’t gone by unnoticed.
This had me thinking about how to reply to them, and, I’m not sure if sharing my thoughts on this matter is the smartest thing I’ve done, but here it goes.

Let me see if I get his straight…

A CL had been granted to set up in LA, there was some struggle around positions and half, if not all, of his crew had been killed whilst setting up there.

He survived the ordeal and took out the prime target of his opponents.
No problem with that, he was defending his turf.

But on his opponent’s funeral he showed a great deal of disrespect by pouring a can of paint all over the deceased’s coffin.
In the perpetrator’s opinion he did nothing but leave a warning to all of his possible future opponents.

Now, there is something called “the unspoken rule of moral”.
Here’s the big question, actually, two questions:
How do you define moral in this thing of ours? And how should someone interpret an unspoken rule?

The definition of moral is “concerned with the principals of right and wrong behaviour”
That makes me think about what is right and perhaps even more, what is wrong.

Granted, disgracing someone’s coffin isn’t appreciated in popular religions, but do we forget that this world of ours is in realm of Mafiosi and not a religious one?

I, for one, have never nor will I ever show disrespect on one’s funeral, I was taught that if I didn’t know anything nice to say I shouldn’t say anything at all.
But this brings me back to where I said “In the perpetrator’s opinion he did nothing but leave a warning to all of his possible future opponents.”

Is that a wrong state of mind considering all facts?

This having said brings me to the second question :” how should someone interpret an unspoken rule?”

That a tough one, isn’t it?
Wait, don’t answer that, it was a rhetorical question…

Tradition will say there’s no questioning unspoken rules, they just are and are to obeyed to.
There’s only one problem with that: what if tradition is outlived by the ‘new guys’?

My bloodline has been around long enough to know what has to be done and especially what not.
But if you really think about it, could you take it for granted that everyone’s is?