"This is to ignore the fact that many people would have removed Las Vegas
before Deimne did anyway, through accumulation of errors if nothing
else."

Really Hoopi? Which errors would these be? You know the countless mistakes Las Vegas made whilst under the leadership of Cryptic. How long was he in charge?

Deimne did not take out Las Vegas beforehand because they had done nothing wrong. When they made a mistake and this mistake could harm New York, Deimne made his move. I'm sure it was difficult for him to take out a man he initially gave auth to, I know he had a mutual likeness for but he did the professional thing.

We're in the mafia, which means we can quite easily kill a friend but that friend would have to do something wrong first. Karma still exists ya know.

Chris Vaughn struts into the streets, his trusty 2x4 over his shoulder. For a moment he listens to the exchanges and the explanation offered up by Godfather Diemne. Composing himself for a moment, Chris chooses his time to speak

Finally, The Rock has returned to New York City! The Rock, The people's Champion, the beyond a shadow of a doubt Most Electrifying man in all of Mafiadom has decided to call New York his home. This will be of no surprise to the Million... and Millions of the Rocks Fans who know that The Rock's ancestral home, Madison Square gardens is in New York. But do not fret non New Yorkers. The Great one is the people's Champ. Not just the New York People, but all people, and the Rock will gladly check each and every jabroni no matter were they be into the Smackldown Hotel. Not only will the Great One check them in, but The Great one will beat the snot right outta them all the way up No Your Role Boulevard, and all the way down Jabroni Drive right to the Enterance. Just like the Gods themselves have checked that Monkey's ass, Yo-Yo into the Smackdown Hotel for running his mouth.

Chris vaugn pauses for a second and raises his gaze above the Horizon.

The Rock doesn't need help, the Rock doesn't want help, but The Rock knows that if ever there was a single man in all of mafiadom whom he had to call on for help, then that man would be GodFather Deimne. Godfather Deimne might not be the Most Electrifying personality in the world, Godfather Deimne might not even have the Millions... and millions of fans that The Rock has, but Godfather Deimne is able, like no other man on Gods Green earth to lay the Smacketh Down on some big dumb jabroni's candy ass.

Balian ran his mouth about how he was going to take Godfather Deimne to the learning tree. Well, he didn't have to drag The Godfather to the learning tree. The Godfather gladly went to the learning tree with him. And then he'll paused once they got there. He reached up and broke off a branch, And he picked each and every leaf off of that branch. Then he turned it sideways and stuck it straight up Balian's candyass!

Chris's eyes sparkle with electricity as he finishes talking about balian and Godfather Deimne before he continues.

It is sad that the whole of Las Vegas had their candy asses handed to them on a silver platter by Godfather Deimne, but as demonstrated by the once Great Godfather Cryptic, Cities often pay the price for stupidity of its leaders. ! If ya smell... what The Rock...

Chris pauses very theatrically, lifts a hand to his face, pushed his chin down, turns his head to the side, and cocks the People's Eyebrow

... is cookin!

Really Hoopi? Which errors would these be? You know the countless mistakes Las Vegas made whilst under the leadership of Cryptic. How long was he in charge?

Countless? I've no idea, I was going by the few errors that had been noted by Deimne in this speech, BEFORE balian opened his gob. They were clearly errors, with Deimne evidently exercising his substantial patience throughout, ending by saying, "Now, after all that, do you see grounds for a war? No? Well, me neither. I had given out fair and justified verbal retorts to each and was happy to consider all matters sorted and closed."

The point being, I am sure others wouldn't have been as patient as the NY Godfather and have perhaps removed LV before that. Now, put my comments back in the context in which I made them.... in reply to Tigger's accusations of some kind of Billy Big Balls or paranoia routine from NY/Deimne. In actual fact, it's clear the accusations are incorrect, because if they were accurate, he'd most likely have taken them out BEFORE the direct threat was made behind what balian thought were closed doors. By that point, there was already reason enough if he so desired. Clearly, he didn't.

"The point being, I am sure others wouldn't have been as patient as the
NY Godfather and have perhaps removed LV before that."

Okay perhaps not, that suggests why he is the Godfather and most powerful figure on the game and others are not though.

It is not a case of whether he desired to take out Las Vegas though, that is exactly the point. These are the pros and cons of his reasoning. Balian did indeed say what he did but how he meant it is a different matter. Maybe he did "desire" to kill New York but would that move ever be made. New York certainly did not "desire" to kill Las Vegas but in the end did.

Has Deimne shown great leadership by protecting his members from possible danger, eliminating threats and keeping his city as wholesome as possible.

Or was he power hungry? Las Vegas was coming up in the world, they had two cities out of Las Vegas with potential plans.

Perhaps he was both, since a leader can be great and power hungry. To be honest, most great leaders are always power hungry.

At no point I'm sure did Deimne desire to take out Las Vegas. Not because if he did, he would have. No, because he is a great leader as well as a great man. Every city makes mistakes, Las Vegas obviously did but they were mistakes that were sorted. Then the biggest mistake cost them.

Maybe people should learn from what Deimne didn't do instead of what he did. As what he did is in the past, but what he didn't do could decide the future.

I do wish you would stop quoting me out of context to fit whatever you want to say. To put it back into context for you, yet again, what I said was in response to Tigger's accusations. If you listen carefully to what I said, you will see that I am indeed using what Deimne DID NOT do, to argue against Tigger's accusations.

Deimne DID NOT go on some billy big balls routine or paranoia induced power exercise when in actual fact he had enough reason to if that was really his motivation or want. No, instead, he exercised the same patience that has doubtless lead to him being the most powerful Godfather we've seen in a while, where others may not have. Therefore, Tigger's response was nonsense and it's already had far more attention (from me, through you) than it deserved.

Can we stop with all this ambiguous nonsense? If Deimne did what he might have done, but didn't do what he thought was right, maybe the chicken had an egg and Jesus wouldn't have been crucified, blah, blah, blah.

The only important lesson that needs to be learned from this specific incident is trust. bailan trusted the people in his hitsquad/city hitsquad coffeeshop. At least one of these people turned out to be a filthy traitor. In our business nobody should point fingers for people being ambitious, in fact I'm quite pleased that this wasn't over who was missing out on their latest love letter like last time. One of the fundamental tenets of the Mafia is family and clearly if someone was ready to sell out bailan to New York, that trust in them was misplaced. The mistake wasn't to hate New York, harbouring a desire to kill New York or being sick and tired of taking Deimne's say so. In this business we have a problem solver for when we get tired of these things and from what I can deduce, bailan wanted to use his. Good for him. Good for thinking like a guy with a set of balls. His mistake was sharing these intentions with a piece of shit traitor.

How he meant it is also completely irrelevant. He said it. It was perceived not to be anything other than a serious threat. That is all that mattered. There are three versions to every conversation, my version, your version and the actual conversation. That is because people interpret everything that is said no matter how small and to be honest, I'm struggling to see how that comment could have been interpreted much different than it was intended.

In our world of nefarious activity, there is no right and wrong, no noble moves and honourable choices. We deal with the dirty underbelly of life and that is where we made our living. There is only one crime and that is to lose. If you're looking for something to learn from, look at the massive tick in the win column for New York, that is the important lesson for any leader, not to concern themselves with the hypothetical potentials and pitfalls of a decision that has already been made and actioned.

~G~warble.

So Gwarble,

"How he meant it is also completely irrelevant. He said it. It was
perceived not to be anything other than a serious threat. That is all
that mattered. There are three versions to every conversation, my
version, your version and the actual conversation. That is because
people interpret everything that is said no matter how small and to be
honest, I'm struggling to see how that comment could have been
interpreted much different than it was intended."

I agree with a lot of your comments however as my father was involved in that conversation, know exactly how Balian meant his words and know how they were taken among others. Is Deimnes decision wrong?

Balian certainly had no plans to war New York, as a LV Crew Leader who had just survived an epic battle, he was rebuilding and merely making a Hit Squad Channel comment we have all become used to. Now that is the truth and is neither my version or your version but indeed what actually happened.

For me that still doesn't make Deimnes decision wrong though, am i correct? By the way, nice point on family trust. It is indeed the traitor among thieves is not even dead himself yet. Long live Mafia ay.

WTNC shakes his head and walks away.

Know how they were taken by whom? All that matters from the discussion is how Deimne interpreted it, which I think is clear and from what you've said differs from how you would have interpreted it.

««balian»» Soon, I wanna take down NY
...
««balian»» Soon, not anytime now

This does not convince me in any way of bailan's lack of desire to war New York, nor does it convince me that he wasn't planning to do so. In fact, it leads me to the opposite entirely, that he wanted to take down New York in the future, when he believed they would be capable of doing so.

Deimne's decision is Deimne's decision, right, wrong, whatever. It was made, has been done and here we now all stand. Whether you feel he was right or wrong doesn't really matter and I highly doubt it matters to Deimne. There is no higher power to judge Deimne until the good lord judges him on his death; no just or unjust, right or wrong. Only what was done.

As to the point about trust I will say that whilst I don't know who the traitor was, it hardly bodes well for his new family that he sold out the last one and they are now all corpses as a result.

~G~warble.

First off, I would like to say that I am not speaking out of bitterness or anger over my fathers death in this last battle. He knew when he signed up that his life would undoubtedly be ended at the hands of another...what difference does it make why it happened as the end result is all the same.

What I do find amusing, however, is that after each of these wars, the victorious side finds it necessary to put on their 'i had no choice' or 'I was the reasonable one' hats. Deimne, why cant you just call this what it was? After the LV/PH war you saw a powerful Godmother and city destroyed and another powerful Godfather and his city weakened. 

Was it really the shooting of an 'innocent' thug? or balians words, which as Gwarble so perfectly indicated, are spoken on a daily basis among families?

The fact was, Cryptic was the only remaining force that could challenge your power. Iota and his water pistol? I think not. DirtyLittleWho? hmm.

Deimne saw an opportunity to strike and took it. Is there anything wrong with that, NO!

I agree completely with Gwarble that this decision was Deimne's to make, right or wrong. My only issue lies with the desire to make yourself sound like the innocent victim who had no other choice but to war with LV. It cheapens the whole thing.

Oh, and Gwarble...if you need to know who the traitor was, just find the last remaining Inscrutable standing...or ask your Boss. Not exactly serious detective work.

"Deimne's decision is Deimne's decision, right, wrong, whatever. It was
made, has been done and here we now all stand. Whether you feel he was
right or wrong doesn't really matter and I highly doubt it matters to
Deimne."

While what you say is true, it annoys me thus I must comment. I'm not going to bring up the ideas of respect and whatever as I am indeed nothing and as a person I don't see myself going anywhere. Not in this life form anyway. However, I'm sure Deimne does care about an others feeling without finding himself agreeing with them. He did what he did to protect his city, while the reasonings might not be right, the decision was and everythings finished now. I know I've spoken to Deimne in different worlds and I feel he has a certain amount of respect for me. No matter how little it may be at the moment compared to how much it may have used to be.

Different worlds breed different people.

The Deimne who heads New York is, in his own words "a cold, heartless bastard." What else can I say?

Balian certainly had no plans to war New York, as a LV Crew Leader who had just survived an epic battle, he was rebuilding and merely making a Hit Squad Channel comment we have all become used to.

Balian's words certainly seemed to suggest otherwise, my dear. To be frank though, it is absolutely irrelevant whether he meant it or not. How many times have you seen people say things they did not mean in the heat of the moment? There is a noticeable correlation between such utterances and death.

If Balian had said something like 'Jesus christ I'm pissed off with Deimne, having to pay compensation whilst trying to rebuild is the last thing we need!', then he'd probably still be alive. The fact is, Balian did not make a grey statement, he made a black and white statement with no room for ambiguity. Was it said in jest? If I was Deimne, I certainly wouldn't waste time figuring that one out darlings.

A comment we have all become used to? That may well be the truth but it was nevertheless a comment that was always going to draw a reaction. For Deimne to have chuckled ruefully and said 'boys will be boys!' would be to do a monumental disservice to his city.

Wrong and right? Completely notional concepts. They have no place in our thing.

He's not cold and heartless at night though.

A water pistol that's still strong enough to knock you over sunshine

"How many times have you seen people say things they did not mean in the
heat of the moment?"

But this wasn't said in the heat of the moment so I'll ignore you okay?

Deimne was right to do what he did, wrong to do it for the reasons but the decision was correct.

X = 1
X + 1 = 1
That makes X = 0 but the fact is X = 1. Wrong reason, right decision capiche?

I was trying to give you NY guys a rest, I know how stressful you have it.

"But this wasn't said in the heat of the moment so I'll ignore you okay?"

So the decision to say 'I wanna take down NY', was not said out of emotion during the heat of the moment; but rather when Balian was fully level headed and compos mentis? On that basis, I really cannot say I'm surprised his time as a leader was cut short.

People should understand that transcripts and intercepts from conversations can easily be manipulated to show what people want them to see.

The wise person knows who to trust and only speaks the unspeakable to those they trust. In a room of hitters and I mean true hitters because few are actually true hit men in this day and age. Nothing would have been said out of that room. If a lesson is to be discovered in these events it would have to be only speak what you are willing to back up.

As for Shasta- maybe a little victory left you power drunk everyone and I mean everyone can fall to the infamous Sprozza 1%. That doesn't make you powerful it means at one point in time you were lucky, so go buy a lottery ticket and hope it keeps going.

Richard was dribbling a basketball down the street, stopping as he approached a crowd who had gathered around a speech the great godfather of New York was giving. After his delivery, several people were muttering and shouting their own opinions in a good old fashion debate. It was a good thing the police were busy on the other side of town, with that...thing Richard may or may not have done. After listening to several of the people discuss the situation, Richard picked up his basketball and started to spin in on his finger. A stranger in the crowd approached Richard. "What are you doing?" the stranger asked. Stopping the ball, Richard turned to the stranger.

"Well, I'm trying to break the spin record some people here have set. I just can't match the way they turned "I want to war New York" into "I want to cuddle New York. I think it might be impossible."

what the fuck has the topic gotten into? Seriously takes one or two tards to mess this up.

Deimine done what he saw fit. As Hoopi stated there are many that would of just shot LV way way before he decided to, i even caught myself thinking he has been very considerate.

It is hard to look at someone who has been in power so long and think he is doing something right. As we are mostly jealous of Deimines position but to be honest he is doing a good job no doubt better than 90% of the people in the world, so i shall stop massaging his ego but alas he done what he thought was right and in my eyes thank god.

I think the fact that Iota graced us with is presence is much bigger deal than anything spoken today.

Chris has a momentary look of shock on his face as he listens to the conversation unfold. Waiting a moment he decides to interject.

The Great One is upset at the way this conversation has gone. I doubt very much if the LV takedown was done to consolidate Deimne's power, after all there is nothing to consolidate. Just as The Rock is beyond a shadow of a doubt the most electrifying man in all mafiadom, then Diemne is the most powerful. Cryptic was no threat to Diemne, in a face on face war Crptic would have died just as he did when the Godfather of New York decided to take him down.

The Rock knows that had the Godfather needed an excuse to takedown LV he had one when NY went to war. Some of his closest friends and allies died in that war and the Godfather sat back and watched because it was not his fight. Ms Borgia, rightly or wrongly went to war with cryptic over percieved threats to her possition, and everything went to hell in a handcart. If Diemne had wanted to take out LV, surely sometime in the following 24 hours as the few who remained, battled to the last he would have made his move?

Chris smiles broadly before continuing.

My own Father was one of those who fought on when his leader died. My father was there when Diemne said he would not come to New york's aid. My own father respected Diemne's decision exactly the way The Rock Respects Diemne's decision. The simple reason for Diemne's speech was to satisfy all you whinny little jabronis who like to cry about this or that. It wasn't fair, He shouldn't have done this, he should have done that, he wanted to kill Cryptic, he didn't want to kill cryptic, he wanted to eat a gaint New york Style Pizza Pie! Go kiss a monkey's ass!

The fact of the matter is this. Diemne whooped all your candy asses, just as he had in the past, and just as he will in the future. and because of Balian, Cryptic went down for the three count. 1, 2, 3. Just like that.

1) The Death of Mor, an innocinet Thug at the time of the war, still with his bright blue vest of innocience on, shot down shortly after becoming a Gangster.

2) Demanding, erroniously, that an innocient member of New york be turned over for being a Part of the PH Vs LV war.

3) Balian's bravado in his coffeeshop boasting of how he wanted to take New york down. Whether he meant it or not who cares, he said it and it got back to Diemne.

And that as they say, is all she wrote, stick a fork in it - LV is done. Blaming all this on Deimne or the Guy who ratted LV out is nothing but stupidity. Of course the Godfather has spies everywhere. Everyone in power at the moment is in that position because they were authed by Deimne, or by someone authed by Diemne, or by someone authed by someone who was authed by Deimne. The simple truth of the matter is thus, you never voice a desire to kill someone more powerful than you unless there are only two people in the room. You, and your god! No matter what anyone says or thinks, the Rock knows that no one in this industry can be trusted 100%, no one! Not you, not me, not him, or her or that big Fat aunt jemima pancake eating jabroni in the corner. Everone one is out for themselves on some level, and trusting some idiot with your life is likely to come back and bite you on the ass.