It seems to me that we are having a discussion within a discussion here.

The issue at the crux of this isn't really whether it is permitted to steal $5,000 or not, whether $5,000 is a lot of cash or even whether it should be worth fighting over. It is whether or not you should respect your potential mark enough not to try to rip them off due to them having become a Made Man.

One thing that appears to have been leading many people astray is the belief that many appear to be operating upon, which is that everyone of the same rank is equal. Sadly, that just isn't the case.

"Gwarble" I hear you ask "How can that be? He's made his bones just like any other Made Man?" Correct. But who is backing him up? Do you honestly thing for a second that if Deimne decided to flout Richard_Kuklinski's rules there is a thing he could do to stop him? This doesn't just begin and end at the very top rung; it trickles down throughout the power structure of the city. A Made Man from New York is more powerful than a Made Man from any other city - fact.

This isn't to put down the practices or beliefs of any of the other cities; it is just the basic principle of power. New York holds the power, their members act vicariously with the authority of Deimne. Should a Gangster that Deimne is particularly fond of, make demands of a Don of a weaker city and have the Godfather's support to do so, that Gangster would be acquiesced to. Fortunately, Deimne doesn't abuse his power and protects the ideals of Cosa Nostra and our hierarchical structure, meaning that people have to earn their slice of vicarious power.

To draw this back to the point of this discussion; should you respect someone on the basis of their rank - no. I'd love to answer that question yes, but I've seen far too many ranks given out far too cheaply, to far too many stupid people. I welcome a time when making your bones means as much in Detroit as it does in New York, but different leaders' associate different levels of importance to the rank, which makes this impossible.

I would suggest instead that those worthy of respect, surprisingly enough, have earned respect and thus this isn't an issue. However, with that being said, I think I would advocate a case by case basis for judging pickpocketing. As we've seen already, people have differing views on the matter and I think this illustrates perfectly why we should have nothing set in stone other than what we are able or choose to enforce.

I'll use Gaius as examples to illustrate this point. Gaius is a passionate Consigliere from the fine city of New York. Now hearing Gaius speak, you can pretty much imagine what his response will be if you decide to try and have a rifle through his pockets - at the very least you're going to lose some fingers and probably more than that. He's a powerful man and I'm fairly certain he could cause any potential pickpocket a world of trouble. Why should he be restricted by anything other than his own balls, his own connections, his own contacts - his own power?

Contrast this with a Made Man from Las Vegas. Imagine he reacts in the same furious way, but what can he actually do about it? The only recourse he has is governed by his own standing within the Mafia, which is exactly how it should be. Does he have the power to teach someone a lesson or is he forced to grin and bear it?

This decision is largely taken out of our hands by the Godfathers setting rules for their respective cities. I personally feel that it would much more enjoyable and open up a variety of scenarios if pickpocketing was left as it was intended to be. Not a lawful condoned act, where people give each other the thumbs up. A genuine attempt to steal from someone else, possibly causing them harm, in order to get their green. Perhaps, if any Gods are listening, they might acknowledge that sometimes people could get robbed with significantly more than $5000 and instead for whatever they happened to be carrying at the time.

~G~warble.

Perhaps, if any Gods are listening, they might acknowledge that sometimes people could get robbed with significantly more than $5000 and instead for whatever they happened to be carrying at the time.

I'm still waiting for the day where I can mug someone, smash their chops in and make them miss their flights due to injury. I hear it used to have some purpose. These days, pickpocketing is an irrelevance for this very reason.

"It still won't change the Rock's mind that button men who Pick Pockets are the biggest two dollar-no-fifty cent-no-aw take all the quarters nickels dimes and pennies, put 'em all in a bag and stick 'em straight-up-your-candy-ass sluts The Rock has ever seen!"

Chris, I know of several button men from your own city who partake in the fun of PP'ing. I myself PP if I'm bored enough.

I thought button men meant Made Men *and above*. If I am right, you just insulted me and a whole bunch of people and I expect an apology.

Sureshot, you are lucky I'm friends with your boss or I'd be all over your pockets right now...

As far as the concept of Pickpocketing in general, I agree that button men should not be PP'd unless they specifically invite you to try your skills on them. I believe that anybody that PPs somebody that doesn't want to be PPd is asking for it, so maybe it should be dealt with accordingly. There are plenty of people that don't mind being PPd to be messing around with those that don't unless you are looking for trouble.

And if a low ranker needs a lesson in humility and not get their panties in a bunch until they rank up to a more respectable rank, then so be it.

CrazyNine, You may be Godfather of Philadelphia, but the Rock will not apologise for what he believes. Regardless of who is involved with pickpocketing it will not alter the rock's opinion of Pickpocketing. Sure if you Pickpocket for fun, then that is your prerogative and that of any of the young men whos pockets you stick your hand into.

Can you honestly tell the Rock that you don't see anything wrong with the idea that a Godfather, leader of a city, multi-millionaire, bane of the FBN, would honestly risk everything just to dip his hand into some jabroni's pocket for a measly 5 grand? I can see it now, CrazyNine, Godfather of Philadelphia, the man the FBN could never get any evidence on sent to San Quentin for 14 years for stealing some guy's wallet... next you'll tell me that Al Capone is going to forget to file his tax return!

To draw this back to the point of this discussion; should you respect someone on the basis of their rank - no. I'd love to answer that question yes, but I've seen far too many ranks given out far too cheaply, to far too many stupid people. ~G~warble.

 

I had no intentions of revisiting this topic as Gwarble has stated, the decision is taken out of our hands by the Godfather's of their respective cities. After seeing the Gwarble speak on the well known power of NY and its members and make a statement such as the one above. I felt it necessary to go over a few thing's. One of which is the rules of the cities...

Pickpocket friendly city! It's polite to send a W/S and the cash back but that's just manners...LAS VEGAS

 There will be no specific rules for pickpocketing. Use common sense when approaching a PH member to pickpocket them and we will also not get involved in PP issues with members of other cities...Philadelphia

Pick pocketing in New Orleans is limited to only those who state 'Pick Pocket Friendly' or have written consent...New Orleans

Chicago is a non-PP friendly city. Any breaches of such rules will be dealt with by Chicago upper echelon. If you have, however, gained permission then this is seen as a transaction between the pickpocketer and the pickpoctee....Chicago

 Pickpocketing in St Louis is depending on ones personal preference. St Louis leaders do not intervene in pick pocket issues that do not involve their members...St Louis

Above are the current rules in place. Notice that LA,DT and suprisingly NY have no current rule in place. I have to say that respect for one's rank (regardless of how you personally feel) is very key in this thing of ours and should never be taken lightly by anyone. I will reiterate what I previously posted about the many variables there are in trying to enforce a blanket rule for pick pocketing. As you see by the above rules, which are not in question here - they are examined with regard to this post and should be followed at all times. However, I feel that they are vague in most cities for a reason. That reason being that there is a wide open space in what's considered acceptable and what isn't. So, does this mean that one should ignore the rules in place when in said city? NO. Can they opt to operate within these rules and choose thier city/people to pickpocket in, sure. Respect ones rank and whether or not they invite this action, sure. If you wish to opt out, can you protect yourself from pick pocketer's? sure.

So, in conclusion. I hope that someday a vote may be taken on the current pick pocketing situation as a whole and if a majority think a change needs to be made? We as a community may offer up suggestions to debate about instead of power plays.

To draw this back to the point of this discussion; should you respect someone on the basis of their rank - no. I'd love to answer that question yes, but I've seen far too many ranks given out far too cheaply, to far too many stupid people. ~G~warble.

 

I had no intentions of revisiting this topic as Gwarble has stated, the decision is taken out of our hands by the Godfather's of their respective cities. After seeing the Gwarble speak on the well known power of NY and its members and make a statement such as the one above. I felt it necessary to go over a few thing's. One of which is the rules of the cities...

Pickpocket friendly city! It's polite to send a W/S and the cash back but that's just manners...LAS VEGAS

 There will be no specific rules for pickpocketing. Use common sense when approaching a PH member to pickpocket them and we will also not get involved in PP issues with members of other cities...Philadelphia

Pick pocketing in New Orleans is limited to only those who state 'Pick Pocket Friendly' or have written consent...New Orleans

Chicago is a non-PP friendly city. Any breaches of such rules will be dealt with by Chicago upper echelon. If you have, however, gained permission then this is seen as a transaction between the pickpocketer and the pickpoctee....Chicago

 Pickpocketing in St Louis is depending on ones personal preference. St Louis leaders do not intervene in pick pocket issues that do not involve their members...St Louis

Above are the current rules in place. Notice that LA,DT and suprisingly NY have no current rule in place. I have to say that respect for one's rank (regardless of how you personally feel) is very key in this thing of ours and should never be taken lightly by anyone. I will reiterate what I previously posted about the many variables there are in trying to enforce a blanket rule for pick pocketing. As you see by the above rules, which are not in question here - they are examined with regard to this post and should be followed at all times. However, I feel that they are vague in most cities for a reason. That reason being that there is a wide open space in what's considered acceptable and what isn't. So, does this mean that one should ignore the rules in place when in said city? NO. Can they opt to operate within these rules and choose thier city/people to pickpocket in, sure. Respect ones rank and whether or not they invite this action, sure. If you wish to opt out, can you protect yourself from pick pocketer's? sure.

So, in conclusion. I hope that someday a vote may be taken on the current pick pocketing situation as a whole and if a majority think a change needs to be made? We as a community may offer up suggestions to debate about instead of power plays.

Chris, I don't give a damn what you think about PP'ing. You are entitled to your opinion. You are also very much entitled to telling me you think I shouldn't PP, but when you talk about rolls of something up my candy ass, then I have an issue with that. You made a very wide blanket statement about people that pickpocket and I am included in that group.

I have a very good relationship with New York and I'm sure you will realize (or somebody will tell you) that you shouldn't refer to a Godfather that way. I hope not to have to bother your CL with such a petty issue, but I will not be disrespected like this.

For me, part of the beauty of Pick Pocketing is that it does consistantly stir up some sort of debate. I love how there is always a bit of a gray area (not counting City Rules of course, which are pretty black and white) There's so many different scenarios with pickpocketing. If a pickpocketing occurs in a city with no set rules, let's say a mob associate picking the pocket of a Made Member of Our Society, the mobsters are forced to sort the issue out amoung themselves. This alone can lead to some interesting scenarios depending on the mobsters' personal beliefs on the subject, what crew they belong to, and who the offending pickpocketer is.

In regards to what Alfonse said, people's views of the matter tend to be so far on the opposite sides of the spectrum I doubt Our World could ever collectively reach common ground. An annoyance for some, sure. And I tend to agree with your views on respecting one's ranks, Mr. Alfonse. But the gray areas and the fact that there are no set rules regarding Pickpocketing in some cities is also what makes Our World interesting. The fact that this issue continues to come up every so often and invokes such a large response is evidence of that.

The emergance of pickpocketers potentially losing large sums of money in lieu of getting beat up has also added a great dynamic to Our World. How great is it when a would-be pickpocketer reaches into your pocket, only to have several hundred thousand dollars taken from them as a result, followed by said mobster saying "Hey can I have my money back?", towhich you respond with a simple "No." It is a thing of beauty

Personally I am with Mr. Hoopi, and look forward to one day seeing some muggings in our streets, as I believe that will open a whole new can of worms for us to debate on our fine streets.

I can agree with what you are saying Mr. Anselmo as far as the variety of it goes. I do not beleive in whining about it to be honest. Fact is that is just the way it is. But as you said it sparks such a debate that perhaps it would be interesting to see a change as well. For myself, I have always played it safe by respecting rank and just not bothering those that ask not to be on their profile. This has worked for me since day one and I myself have never had a problem. For any youngsters reading this I think that is a good way to start if you choose to pick pocket someone. Always read the rules of ones city before commiting such an act.

Lets get put some perspective and context back on what Chris said. In his now-well-known style, he managed to compare me to a hamster and basically call me a kiss arse. He referred to his own Godfather as a geriatric on his way to a zimmer frame. He made reference to Iota's pockets being stuffed with empty burger wrappers. He said something or other about Champ digging graves up, and grave diggers in general. To remove one single quote from this context, that was directed at no-one and/or everyone, does none of us any favours.

It seems pretty clear to me, given his abundance of smack talk throughout the streets, that Chris is saying that he doesn't think that Mades and above should be worrying themselves with pickpocketing. I don't think we will be doing anyone any favours if we're going to start attempting to take anything he says in quite so literal terms, as opposed to actually looking at the subtleties of what he's saying. Bear in mind, I'm aware how ridiculous it sounds to be saying the man has any subtlety of point when his delivery method is so in your face.

Let me also note that I am among the many Made Men and over that will occasionally dabble in a bit of pickpocketing. That said, is Chris necessarily wrong that, really, it seems a bit out-of-role or out-of-status for us to be doing it? Probably not. Do I feel offended that he thinks I might be named after a hamster? Not at all. Clearly, I don't speak for Deimne or Iota, but I feel confident in saying that they won't take his comments to heart either.

I'd hope we could keep this to what it was, a friendly and - in the case of Chris - light-hearted debate on pickpocketing with some valid arguments underneath the bravado.

I hope not to have to bother your CL with such a petty issue, but I will not be disrespected like this.

Given that there was no disrespect intended or given, when a comment is viewed in context, we can all sleep well in the knowledge that this issue isn't an issue.

However, should anyone ever take exception to my good friend Chris they are more than welcome to let me know. I always like to see how the most electrifying mafiosi our world has ever seen chooses to electrify on a daily basis.... and what he has suggested he might insert where. 

I take exception to his face.

This is off topic but I'm afraid it's already gone on way too long...

Alfonce. STOP WHISPERING!

You think I want to bend over and strain to hear what your meek little mouse's arse of a voice is trying to say? No. If I don't hear something Deimne tells me I'll ask him to speak up, so why on earth would I bend to the knee to understand you?

You may well have very valid points to put across. Hell, you may have profound insights that lead me to value your opinion and treat you with a great deal of respect. But you know what? I'm never going to get there as I will never put in the extra effort to listen to your little mouse voice. As soon as I notice you whispering quietly I just move on to the next person. I can honestly say that I have never and will never bother to try and hear anything you say so long as you use that worthless little voice.

Speak up man, use the common level. Hell, I may even value what you have to say.

Point taken. It's good to know that as long as one is *consistent* about being obnoxious one can get away with it. Perhaps I have been holding my tongue for too long with certain idiots out of respect for their leaders but I see that I have no need to hold back on sarcasm as all will be well in the end. It's also good to know that suggesting people to stuff things up their candy asses is not disrespectful...

The "idiots" I'm thinking of are various and in different crews and cities. So since I'm being broad and vague, there is no disrespect intended.

Marley's eyes begin to glow and a smile as wide as Iota's ass hits his face

Marley has to take one more hit of the reefa to make sure he is hearing this correctly

So you're telling me I can say what the fuck I want again?? Crazynine has had me on hush patrol because I seem to offend quite a few people. It's good to know that my disrepect is finally going to be appreciated around here.

My street speech: "Disrepecting Yo Ass" coming soon......

This is off topic but I'm afraid it's already gone on way too long...
Alfonce. STOP WHISPERING!
You think I want to bend over and strain to hear what your meek little mouse's arse of a voice is trying to say? No. If I don't hear something Deimne tells me I'll ask him to speak up, so why on earth would I bend to the knee to understand you?
You may well have very valid points to put across. Hell, you may have profound insights that lead me to value your opinion and treat you with a great deal of respect. But you know what? I'm never going to get there as I will never put in the extra effort to listen to your little mouse voice. As soon as I notice you whispering quietly I just move on to the next person. I can honestly say that I have never and will never bother to try and hear anything you say so long as you use that worthless little voice.
Speak up man, use the common level. Hell, I may even value what you have to say.

Hmm. It seems to me Tyrion (since you have directed all of this animosity towards me personally) that you heard me. I wasn't aware that people whispered in the streets?

Alfonse, you realy can't hear yourself speak and realize you do it way, way lower than everybody else?

Hear me talking loud now? Hear me shouting now?

Hear me whispering now?

Thank you, I just realized my computer is doing this, and showing everyone's font as the same. It must be the editor. My apologies, Hopefully this is better!

It's good to know that as long as one is *consistent* about being obnoxious one can get away with it.

This isn't about consistency, it's about context. In context, there is nothing obnoxious in the slightest with what Chris had to say. Anyone, including you, who wishes to feign insult at his words is ignoring the context and simply looking for a fight.

The "idiots" I'm thinking of are various and in different crews and cities. So since I'm being broad and vague, there is no disrespect intended.

Being vague doesn't give anyone, even the godfather of a city, the right to be a dick. It's about common sense and judgement. Listening to Chris' entire speech and not simply taking one line out of context it's 100% clear and obvious that the intent was never to insult anyone or to belittle anyone. It isn't accaptable due to it being 'vague', it's acceptable because of the intent and context it is said in. However, if someone wishes to start insulting people and attempting to hide behind 'it was vague', then best of luck to them. I'd love to see how long they last. My guess, not long.

Basically you are just saying that one can insult as long as they are not trying to be insulting and that as long as one has a "persona" then they can go as far as to tell every button man and higher that does something he doesn't approve of to shove stuff up their ass.

When Gwarble does it, at least he writes a disclaimer. This guy is being insulting but standing by what he is saying. I find pickpocketing to be a lot of fun when I'm not around killing shit. I mean, why waste the chance to use my weapon if I'm not planning to kill anything in the very near future? So that being said, isn't true that Chris just said that people like me "are the biggest two dollar-no-fifty cent-no-aw take all the quarters nickels dimes and pennies, put 'em all in a bag and stick 'em straight-up-your-candy-ass sluts The Rock has ever seen!"?

I'm not singling out a sentence to pick a fight. I'm singling out a sentence that is belittling people who like to have fun the way I do. I thought I had earned the right to have fun in whichever way I wanted without being belittled.

And mind you, I wasn't planning on being a dick. But more than once I held a snide remark just to avoid the hassle of having people misinterpreting my words but if one can just say insulting things as long as they do it with style, then I don't feel the need to hold my tongue any more. Just going by what you say here about your friend Chris I know I should last a long time.