My rank determines me to be a respectful, loyal, hard working member of my city. If I wanted to be a man of honour I wouldn’t be here. The principles of honour you preach about were conjured up to suit our purpose. Would you walk around doing business on a daily with high spirits knowing the business you work in made you a dishonourable man? Those who started Cosa nostra put this veil of humility so we wouldn’t see what we really are, Ruthless dishonourable criminals. What separates us from the gutter rats is that I can show respect and be undyingly loyal to my leader.

You talk of honour to only suit your purpose. Yet on the side would just as easily do dishonourable things. Is there honour in killing your enemy in their sleep? Is there honour in you a don of your city wasting your time killing a no name gangster just get your gun better? You would think it beneath a don to do this. We all would just as easily do dishonourable things to suit our purpose, make us stronger, and give us the advantage.

If you put that $210,000 out there in the streets knowing full well that it is possible for someone to steal it and it doesn’t have to be out there in the first place then no I don’t think it would be disrespectful of me to steal it off you if you were so inept to risk it.

If there was even the slightest chance that we are capable of honour then honour should only be shown towards our own family.

A honourable man ALWAYS shows honour in all cases no matter what the situation. To preach about being honourable to only be dishonourable when it comes to something else. Just because our society accepts a certain act as common place doesn’t make it honourable.

Tayto - FreddieCleanPants has no need to stir shit. I echoed very similar sentiments not moments before. I also worry that you seemingly wrongly concur with the belief that we are not honourable.

Advantage - Clearly the "ignoring the context of MIAs for a moment" aspect of that quote was ignored in your response. But even so, I believe it is stealing for the reasons I've already stated again and again.

Rather than us all going around in circles, I think the opinions on this are fairly clear cut. Los Angeles have taken a decision. If the other cities join us, good for them, if they don't, they don't.

Your rank determines you to be "a man of honour".

Well then let's get that part of the quote noticed:

When it comes down to who's family is benefiting from that money; you left it laying around, only to be picked up after one very specific time, then yes, yes I would try and race you to it. 

Grand.

Good to see there are people like Tayto who are understanding what I'm getting at and are not to blind to see the truth around them. Gwarble just because people say that a rank determines you to be a man of honour doesn't make it so. There have been many cases in history to prove that just cause a majority of society states one thing doesn't actually make it true.

Snip, I really don't know what more I can say to you.

(This is a mafia game where we emulate the mafia. In the mafia, Made Man means "Man of Honour". This is a fact)

It seems clear at this point we aren't going to agree. So I'll just draw all this back around to the point:

Los Angeles have taken a decision and this can be seen in our city rules. If the other cities join us in making a similar decision, good for them. If they choose not to adopt a similar policy, then they don't have to.

Gwarble, my point was simply that what FreddieCleanPants said was akin to saying...ooooh, look what he said...which is shit stirring rather than the constructive dialogue we are engaged in.

As regards my own personal beliefs, well, I never shared them, so try not to worry too hard on the matter.

Anyhow, you in LA have taken what you all consider to be an honourable way forward and I wish LA all the best with that.

Understandable, I was trying to make a point and showing you how I see things, obviously I failed. I have always had respect for you and especially Godfather Spacemountain so I wish you luck with this new decision for your city. I never said I disagreed with it in fact as I said before I do encourage other cities to consider a similar proposal but with finer guidelines.

I am reminded of a street speech by the late and great Godfather Butt_Ox, who upon becoming the first city leader of the city of St. Louis, outlined the traditions of This Thing Of Ours in his announcement speech.

Famiglia, Onore, Sangue, Rispetto

Onore: (translated to English) honor.

It's a fact and can be easily researched.

As far as argument that snatching purses is a dishonorable thing to do, I couldn't agree more. In fact, it's a practice I haven't participated in since I was looked upon as a petty thief and a thug. I certainly haven't snatched any purses since I was initiated into Cosa Nostra as a Made Man, otherwise known as a Man of Honor. But to each their own I suppose.

There is no honour in stealing from a friend of ours.

Los Angeles believe that the honour and integrity of Cosa Nostra is more important than any amount of money

Now I know I may be bringing up a topic which has been discussed many times before, but I feel I must ask you - Will the city of Los Angeles also be banning their members from Pickpocketing? This is an act of thievery just as stealing an MIA is.. It is also not about the amount of money, as you have already stated, it is about the fact that we are honourable men, and not dishonourable petty thieves.

This question is purely for my own curiosity and nothing else.

Butt Ox did outline the traditions and he mentioned honour, but it is different to mention it and say you follow it then to actually do it. Where was his honour when he took a pot shot at Deimne the moment Deimne became godfather there by forfeiting the lives of his entire city? Threw it out the window the moment he saw his chance at greater power and removing a powerful rival. Not that there is anything wrong with his decision, could have proved a wise one had he succeeded.

Afro, in a word, no.

As I said earlier:

"As has been said, kill competition has very little to do with it in the end. Ultimately, we will all end up with the same notches on our belt through MIAs. This comes down to one mafioso, putting his hand in another mafioso's pocket. Not for a paltry 5k, but for a couple of hundred thousand dollars."

Pickpocketing in this world is fairly well established as harmless, pointless and a bit of fun to those that choose to do it, not least because of the sums involved. If you want to compare pickpocketing to something, compare it to the muggings of old. In that case, the detriment caused was greater and people never took part in it as a bit of fun. Stealing MIAs, I would argue, at the cost of credits isn't a bit of fun, it's competition where it needn't necessarily exist.

Of course we are all here to earn money, but not - in our opinion - at the expense of other men of honour. As has been said, this is going in circles. Some people place emphasis on our fundamentals and traditions, some don't. LA now have a policy on stealing MIAs, other cities don't. There's little point in dragging it out because it's clear that opinions differ. Ultimately, this move affects no-one but LA and that's why it will be adhered to.

I would agree Hoopi, but these words came from your Leaders mouth himself..

Los Angeles believe that the honour and integrity of Cosa Nostra is more important than any amount of money

Therefore your argument that it is a mere 5k falls on deaf ears. Pickpocketing IS thievery, just as MIA stealing - regardless of sums involved.

I find myself in a position today where words are failing me. For Snip to come out here and say he is not a man of honour shines very poorly on his family. To put a man like that into the rank of Made Man...

A man of honor, one that follows the code of honor, the code of silence, Omerta. Either follow it, or don't. But I wouldn't suggest the latter. But to come out here and tell us that we are not honorable? I take that as a slap to the face. I am, actually, personally insulted by your sentiment.

I am sure that when Snip saying he is not a man of honor, he means he couldn't care less if associates from another city got their dinner.  I know Snip very well and would lay my own reputation to back up his dedication and loyalty to Philadelphia and our Godfather, CrazyNine.  I find it rather pathetic that many of you feel the need to twist the words of this man, to avoid the subject at hand.

Back to the matter:

"Pickpocketing in this world is fairly well established as harmless,"

Your words right ther.  pickpocketing in any world is thievery, stealing from another person for the benefit of yourself.  If the masses decided that shooting a found contract was harmless, would this then make it honorable?  I mean, shit, a Consigliere from your family has recently come out and made his views very clear about this issue of pickpocketing; being something along the lines of, anyone that partakes in it of a respectable rank is not worth anything.

"I find it rather pathetic that many of you feel the need to twist the words of this man, to avoid the subject at hand."

Interesting use of the word pathetic towards several people higher ranked than yourself, quite ironic, but anyway... I don't see much twisting going on to be honest.

"'Pickpocketing in this world is fairly well established as harmless,'

Your words right ther."

Good spot. Am I wrong? Is it not established as harmless? At no point did I say pickpocketing was honourable or that the masses had decided it so; correct me if I'm wrong.

"I mean, shit, a Consigliere from your family has recently come out and made his views very clear about this issue of pickpocketing; being something along the lines of, anyone that partakes in it of a respectable rank is not worth anything."

Speaking of twisting, yep, I remember it well. This was also cleared up at the time when his comments were taken out of context at the time too, most effectively by Godfather Deimne when he said, of Chris' comments:

"Given that there was no disrespect intended or given, when a comment is viewed in context, we can all sleep well in the knowledge that this issue isn't an issue.

However, should anyone ever take exception to my good friend Chris they are more than welcome to let me know."

I fail to see why you are pushing that, or pushing this not-stealing-MIAs debate. We're not doing it, end of story. Why that bothers certain people, I've no idea.

To each their own.

It seems a few people here are twisting things and bringing up subjects to avoid the topic at hand in an attempt to try and prove themselves right. Los Angeles are doing what we believe is the honorable thing to do and if certain people do not like what LA are trying to do here then good for them, who gives a shit about them anyway?

AfroSamurai - We are not talking about pickpocketing, there is no way you can compare pickpocketing to MIA stealing. Pickpocketing is seen as harmless fun, trying to catch eachother out without causing much financial damage. MIA stealing costs the victim a hell of a lot more money, money which they have spent precious time on earning. Likening MIA stealing to pickpocketing is a feeble attempt to dis-regard our belief's of MIA stealing.

Advantage - A few people here are twisting words, both LA and non LA.

Snip - Erm...i don't actually know what to say to you.

As Hoopi has pointed out, LA have took a decision based on their beliefs. In does not affect other cities, in fact, it benefits them. Coming out here and arguing our decision was not asked for, this is not a debate, there is no party here. Godfather SpaceMountain has took a decision and announced it. I really don't see why people are getting so pissy about it.

Au contraire, Cruel. This started off as an announcement but that announcement has sparked a debate. I don't think anyone is trying to suggest that LA cannot implement this rule. That would be silly. But people are putting their opinions out on the rule because not everyone agrees with the fundamentals of it and if it's suggested that there is a hope that other cities will follow, which there was, you cannot expect people to sit by silently and hope that things fall your way.

That being said I do applaud Gwarble and SpaceMountain. While I don't agree with the rule necessarily I respect the fact that they didn't just come out on the streets yelling about it. They showed great leadership by example by enacting this rule. I just, personally, would not like to see this rule in New York.