Cruel, I was not saying that I disagree with Pickpocketing. I was not starting a debate with anybody regarding Pickpocketing either, as you can see I was directly addressing the LA leadership themselves.

If you would care to read the reasons behind the ban on stealing MIA's you can see that you could apply those reasons to pickpocketing also.

I feel as though I am repeating myself here, but in the words of Gwarble - "Los Angeles believe that the honour and integrity of Cosa Nostra is more important than any amount of money".. which implies to me that ANY amount, from $1 to infinity is not worth as much as the honour and integrity of Cosa Nostra. Quoting him again here, he states - "My members aren't thieves, they too are in the mafia.". All the reasons provided by Gwarble are more than sufficient to also place a ban on Pickpocketing.

I could go on but as I said, I did not appear to argue with anyone, only to ask the LA leadership whether they would extend their ban on 'dishonourable thieves' to pickpocketing also.

I will quote Gwarble again here, as he has already said it so well.. "The idea that doing this would in some way benefit other cities is a bit redundant; why would they suddenly become super powerful just because you stopped stealing? Do you think they don't take out more than one contract, but rather just throw their hands up and holster their weapon forever?".

In my rules, members are to get consent before they pickpocket anyone. Pickpocketing, to the vast majority, is a bit of harmless fun. If people do not want to participate in the harmless fun, they simply choose to exclude themselves when asked and nobody from my family will touch them. I don't therefore see the need to ban pickpocketing. If mugging was to return, which is not about harmless fun, then I would consider that to be dishonourable and forbid it.

(Most people who pickpocket don't do it simply to commit theft, they do it as a game. It is another of those areas within the game that we are balancing the enjoyment of users against realism. Strictly speaking, it is difficult to justify from a roleplay perspective and I think you're right, picking the pocket of a member of Cosa Nostra would be dishonourable. However, in MafiaReturns we know for a fact that they aren't causing harm, they are taking virtually nothing and this is a feature that City Hall encouraged us to use which is why it is largely acceptable today. To strike some sort of balance, I've introduced a rule of consent between the parties within my family. Ultimately everything is a balancing act between realism and making allowances for where we are. These include things like shooting IAs, obviously in reality this is a ridiculous concept, but something we have to try and justify here. Similarly, pickpocketing is a bit of fun for the most part, so we've tried to keep as many options open as we can.)

With all due respect Gwarble, everything you just said contradicted your whole point.  I don't do all the re-quotes and other bullshit so hopefully everyone saw it themselves.

As far as MIAs. I wish you luck with this decision and I want to personally thank you and the fine city of LA for allowing me to continue stealing your MIAs while you don't touch mine. It takes a man of great "honor" to do such a thing and that you have shown.  One thing I would like to add, is that, I hope 2 or 3 more cities adopt this law of honor (excluding mine) and MIA stealing would really become tens times easier.

On another note, I only show honor to Crazynine. I could give a flying fuck or a rats dick about anyone else from any other crew or city.  This is where respect comes in. I'll allows show respect to those who've earned it. If I could steal every MIA made, I would. Just being honest, but when enforcing a rule in hopes that other cities do the same, this is where I have a problem with you forcing your business practices on others. So as long as this decision is NOT universal I'll continue enjoying the "honor" LA  has for me by not stealing my MIAs.

Marley lites his next joint for Gwarble and his new honor mission in hopes that one day Marley will make the DWL

Within the umbrella of organised crime I find it hard to believe that this level of anarchic behaviour when it comes to fulfilling contracts would be long tolerated.

If I entered into a contract to do something, whether it be sending a message by ending the life of someone who needed to be taught a lesson, or building a conservatory in someone's back yard, I would expect to be able to complete that contract. I would be pretty pissed off if I turned up and some other guy had charged in before I had a chance to start and had built the fucking thing.

When taking on an MIA, you are entering into a contract. You have been told that this person needs to be taught a permanent lesson. It is probably safe to assume that you have been given the reason why this person needs to be taught a permanent lesson. You know the reasons this person needs to go. No one else will do. For anyone else to teach this lesson would just be a random act of murder. That is not good for business.

You are then given the whereabouts and an approximate time that you should be available to do this. As far as I am aware no two people can ever be given the same contact. In my mind this is so that the act could be perpetrated without unnecessary problems arising, without drawing unneeded attention. The last thing anyone needs would be a loud shoot-out outside some mooks apartment.

Can you imagine the anger if your Godfather were to tell you to perform a task for them, only for you to return and explain that you were all ready to do it when some guy from another City strolled past, eyed an opportunity without knowing any details whatsoever, and stole it out from under you?

RIA's are bad for business for everyone. They are weak, massively underachieving and untrustworthy. They stuck their toe in this thing of ours and decided it wasn't for them, who knows what secrets they could go on to tell if they were left to live.

MIA's are bad for business for someone specifically. Not part of this thing of ours, hence why they are only even findable after the contract has been handed out.

If someone else can define these in any other way I would be intrigued to see it.

The stealing of MIA`s is a practice which in my opinion should stop.

If I were to enter into a contract to purchase a business, agree the price, hand over the money, and exchange the contract, I would expect to get the only key to that property. Should I turn up at the place and some bum stood in my way, tore up my contract, wrote his own and then thrust it down my throat with a smile on his face, I`d tear his head off and piss down his throat.

It`s much the same with MIA`s, except for;  the bum is invisible, they get to keep the property, and you lose all your money. Sounds very much like a stitch up to me!

Marley The Great wrote:

On another note, I only show honor to Crazynine. I could give a flying fuck or a rats dick about anyone else from any other crew or city.  This is where respect comes in. I'll allows show respect to those who've earned it. If I could steal every MIA made, I would.

Hmmm, well strong words except for one very important aspect......what if the MIA had been generated by your very own GF?, or a young wiseguy attempting to do his bit to protect your GF and the city in which he lives? What then? Would they then become akin to a “rats dick”? I cannot see any honour in the stealing of MIA`s for this reason. There is no way of assuring you are only shafting another family. I wonder how much money has been removed from the coffers of a family`s bank by their own members in this way?

The practice has to cease, I only hope that the needs of the many, outweigh the greed of the few........

Even though I will honour the wishes of my Godfather and my superiors in L.A. until my untimely death, I do have one or two problems with people who think that just because they've bought something means its actually they're property.

I mean we're in the Mob, the Mob by definition, are thieves and criminals. If this particular decree had not come to pass and I did come to see a MIA in my vicinity, I'm going to kill it. I can't say I approve of for example, wiseguys stealing Godfathers MIA's, but there's no possible way to know who's MIA is who's. Another problem that I can foresee is that it could welcome comfort and complacency, and remove the excitement and competition that should be integral parts of the fine art of "wacking".

The hitting of MIA's could possibly become a thing that any two bit hustler with a pop gun could partake in, and that in my view it ruins the whole exercise. Competition is a wonderful thing, to me it brings excitement and achievement when I have beaten another rival mobster to killing a homeless bum sitting on the sidewalk. And sometimes, although I grant you very rarely when I do lose the race to killing a MIA it brings me the sense of determination not to lose the race again.

To round of, I believe putting this new law into practice could possibly be a bad thing to us in the long run, it could dilute the meaning of being a hitman in "our thing". But as I've said, as long as this is the wish of my superiors in Los Angeles, it'll be my duty to respect and observe they're wish.

MarleyTheGreat, nothing I have said is in any way contradictory.

This is the last time I'm going to explain this, as it seems to just be being ignored.

We are men of honour. This is a fact. Regardless of how you want to interpret the activities, the motives or justification for any activity, this is what anyone who is part of a family is or is striving to be. A man of honour. An honourable person. The mob, by definition are men of honour. This is what seperates them from the scum bags.

I have seen nothing whatsoever from anyone that in any way changes my belief that stealing contracts from fellow men of honour is a dishonourable act. Forget everything else that has detracted away from that point. Forget the skill of wacking. Forget the art of being a gunman. Forget everything except that you are/striving to become a man of honour.

Stealing a contract is dishonourable and at odds with being a man of honour, which is what being in the mafia is all about. Therefore, Los Angeles will not be engaged in what we perceive as a dishonourable act.

Bruiser strolls out and begins to address a few people that are still milling around discussing LAs new stand on stealing MIAs.

I hate to even suggest this because I know our gods are busy and most if not all of us wish to settle most matters as a community and not get them involved BUT should they need to my suggestion would be to have the MIAs spawned with the defense to that particular mobster that spawned him.  Have a real chance of that MIA shooting back should you steal a MIA of a much higher ranked person then yourself.  More or less the way the Durdens are now.  If a wiseguy steals a Dons MIA then there is a great chance of that wiseguy being killed by that MIA.  My guess would be there would be A LOT less MIA stealing going around if you could possibly be killed by it.  Just a thought.

Quite and interesting point you just threw you threw out there Bruiser.It could work/Be interesting OOC