Cool man. That's a nice pen. But put the lid on it and we can get back to the point.

Oh ok, so one or two people repeatedly PP'd you despite your mass of guards and that was a part of the reason to 'scorch-earth' Philly? Was that one of the bigger issues? Because it seems like one that has you particularly irked.

Could you possibly divulge any more reasons? I wouldn't ask, but there has been no street thread regarding the removal, and you seem to be better informed than I.

Thanks for letting me borrow your pen by the way. Writes well.

Also, why do you keep mentioning a specific city? 
I am speaking in generals. Are you somehow relating frequent PP's as a thing that Philly was doing? I don't recall saying that at any point. 

 

But hey, how about we talk about targeted PPing, repeatedly, every few days, from the same family. Would you consider that some sort of targeted attack that might raise suspicion? 

Seems like you take my general statements, and try to attach them to something specific? 

Well, I mean you weren't a CL for the Vegas takedowns - and therefore had no real say in the matter, so nope, not trying to attach meaning to anything, just continuing the revelatory conversation that Insta and Zeit in Vegas, and Randall, Raphael and Zangief in Philly were accused of nefarious activity, as opposed to being purged is all.

Just reacting to what I hear and see, here and there.

Well this went off on a big of a tangent since you asked me for clarification as to what you've misunderstood, but I'll happily explain anyway. You've misunderstood that there is an obvious correlation between the survivors from the war all being part of the same group and all of the people who died not being in this group. This was outlined by the original speaker and this was touched upon in my earlier response, which you've tried to disregard and subsequently paint these deaths as being in response to the actions of the members of these families. This, if not entirely untrue, is certainly a far cry from the whole truth. 

I would instead suggest again that the crew/cities were not removed because of those actions. I would suggest those crew/cities were removed because they were not in the 'Nifl/affiliate group gang' and those actions provided a flimsy excuse. An excuse so flimsy in fact, that nobody before you bothered to even try and make it stick.

Why do I think that? Two main reasons really; 

1. It is rarely the Don/Godfather's fault when someone takes a naughty shot or shots

2. The data doesn't support it

My first point is based upon the reality that there is really very little a leader can do to prevent someone intent on causing harm from doing so in this day and age; targets are too plentiful and witnesses too few. Short of just removing a person based upon their age (more on this later), what can a leader really do to prevent someone from taking pot shots and shooting bodyguards until they are caught doing so? Not a lot. Seems the offending crew/cities would need to have a whole boatload of people doing this to be held accountable. Which leads me to point 2....

...the data doesn't support it. I've compiled a list (as best as I can given the wars etc) of those sponsored people who were shot outside of a war and didn't obviously request it. There are some really suspicious deaths in the middle of the wars too, but lets disregard them for a moment and focus on the below, which are the people I can determine from the obituaries in the past few weeks:

Freakshow - Magua (Still alive) 

Colton - DougRoss (Still alive)

Washing - Dmitry (Dead)

Basil - DougRoss (Still alive)

Slamrent - JustinBieber (Dead)

Rintoto - Hoth (Still alive)

Tulip_Tattsyrup - Moby (Dead)

MartyMuscles - Dmitry (Dead)

JakePeralta - CharlieSmith (Dead)

Eunoia - Sachetto (Dead)

Mike-corleone - Kate-Macer (Dead) 

Winter - Hoth (Still alive)

Figment - Nebula (Dead)

Millzy - Grooglez (Still alive)

CLO - Force- (Still alive)

Oktane - Grooglez (Still alive)

Now, I can't know for sure that all of those people were doing the things you said in point 1 of your response, but they died and in most cases their leaders didn't need witnesses for their murders, so they must broken a rule or have done something wrong, right? You wouldn't just kill people who were loyal to you without cause, would you? Of course not.

So, according to your statement as to the chain of causation, it was the actions of these people (above) which led to crews/cities being removed. Ok, Let's look at the data.

1 person from Las Vegas, who I'm not sure actually did anything, yet they were removed, root and branch. 

2 people from Hoth's crew. He's not dead. Even though Detroit was otherwise removed, root and branch.

2 people from your crew. You're not dead.

2 people from DougRoss's crew, one of whom he openly eulogises for shot at people. He's not dead. 

This suggests to me that the reason why these crews/cities died is not due to shots and BG wacks at sponsored members because there are not an over abundance of them from any one crew or city to justify that as the reasoning. If it was that simple, you, Hoth, DougRoss or Magua have just as much reason to be in the obituaries, but you aren't. 

I then look at the facts which link you, the other murderers. Premeir is your RHM and you succeeded his ancestor, Premier, and he is part of the group. Hoth is part of the group. DougRoss is part of the group. Magua is part of the group. How do I know they're all part of the group? Wolverine told me they are, many, many times, even long before they came into power. He told me exactly who was in the Nifl/affiliate group and I invite him to come here and correct me on that if I am wrong. 

As he won't/can't do that without telling lies which will easily be refuted with photographic evidence (technology is really coming on these days), it seems very unlikely that the reason Las Vegas et al were killed had much, if anything, to do with their members taking pot shots or shots at bodyguards. The obituaries and the reality of leadership don't support that and we know they were not in the group which everyone else belongs to. A group which concerned itself with gaining power and now that it has it will employ whatever means necessary to hold onto it. 

This leads me to purging. Purging, in case anyone was unsure, is the term coined to describe the pre-emptive killing of loyal members who are perceived to be a potential threat  at a later date. How do you feel about purging, Grooglez? Would you purge your members? Have you ever purged anyone since you became a leader or in your capacity as a RHM for Premeir?

Forgive me, there were more names on my list which I seem not to have presented here.

SirSmokeADamnLot - Magua (Still alive)

Revenant - Grooglez (Still alive)

oRagnar - Ochoa (Still alive)

Cruelty - Hoth (Still alive)

Gidan_C - Raphael (Dead)

TheOtherWhispers - Grooglez (Still alive)

BlueSkiesss - ochoa (Still alive)

Quite a lot from your family, Grooglez... 

I cant remember Basil, Doug dealt with it directly, but I dealt with Colton and I know for a fact he requested his own kill.

Im sure there's a bunch other like that on that list.

Just out of the top of my head Gidan_C for example Im pretty sure he was targetted by a rogue not the other way around.

Same with oRagnar, he didnt rogue either.

Get your facts before making a mess out of insinuations Grin-03 

Grin-03, I want to first sincerely thank you for this response. I know you might not believe that... but i genuinely thank you for taking the time to provide your response. 


Item 1
 

My first point is based upon the reality that there is really very little a leader can do to prevent someone intent on causing harm from doing so in this day and age; targets are too plentiful and witnesses too few. Short of just removing a person based upon their age (more on this later), what can a leader really do to prevent someone from taking pot shots and shooting bodyguards until they are caught doing so? Not a lot. Seems the offending crew/cities would need to have a whole boatload of people doing this to be held accountable. Which leads me to point 2....

 
Please do correct me if I am wrong in how I am analyzing this statement.
You agree that a leader is really limited in their abilities to take action on these "pot-shoters" due to how this world now operates. 
This is ultimately the single biggest point I'm trying to make. Those actions by those people are done for the purpose of "causing drama" or "stirring shit up" as I mentioned earlier. 
They serve no goal. They are not serious mafioso with goals of cementing their self at the top and injecting their personal visions and thoughts as to how this world and it's business should operate. 
Those mafioso would not be taking random shots without any real chance of success other than maybe an incredibly lucky stray bullet. 

No, these people clearly understand that their actions will eventually result with reaction from their targets. It will leave countless others dead. The blood of those deaths are on the hands of the people who initiated the attacks. 

You yourself said.. what much more can a leader do? So with your own wording... this isn't a purge. This is simply responding with the only method available unfortunately. 

And we both know that those who are causing all this trouble, know this as well. But, that is not their concern. I believe your old familiar friend Disorder on multiple times claimed that the overall success of the user base, growing the community of this thing of ours, are not of his concern. 

I, on the other hand, do care about growth of the mafioso population. While yes, I can be incredibly brash at times, you can speak to dozens and dozens of mafioso who previously had no interaction with me... and i think that many of them will agree that I put am very approachable and many times support them beyond what many others may do. With that being said, sadly, there will always be a few that somehow manage to slip between the cracks and I don't give them the amount of attention I probably should have. And that is my fault and I take responsibility for that. Ill comment on this shortly in item #2.



Item 2

There are many names on that list of yours that we had witness statements showing them to have shot at bodyguards and/or other living mafioso. Others you listed were killed by the acts of rogues themselves. These were victims to rogues, not leaders of any city. 

I do not want to continue the public embarrassment of Clo, as he's done enough of that himself already. We have spoken to Oktane in length as to the reasons why, as well as Millzy. Revenant was the victim to a rogue and I'm actually very saddened that his kin did not return to us as I would have welcome him into the family as an extension of his father. 

When you insult my deceased family members with the claim that their deaths were due to THEIR rogue behavior when some were in fact the target of some fuckery rogue, I can no longer take your claims as serious or genuine. You're inflammatory statements and list of names is evidence to me that you will twist anything to make a convoluted point. I've made an effort with you, but refuse to spend my time addressing your nonsensical views.

Grooglez, being a very analytical person you'll understand that when one compiles data, in order to prevent unnecessary bias, they reproduce the whole sample which could have any relevance to the hypotheses. Accordingly, I took the names of everyone who was sponsored in the obituaries between the removal of Insta/Zeitgeist etc. and the removal of Zangief/Raphael etc., removing only those people who had seemingly died in a war or had clearly requested the death. It would have been remiss and perhaps even potentially misleading of me, something I'm keen to avoid, to ignore potentially relevant sections of the data by excluding them without justification.

Therefore, Alexander_Hamilton, I agree that some names on that list probably didn't do the things Grooglez alleges is the reason for the demise of cities/crews. One thing we know for a fact is that some of them did. Indeed, according to Grooglez, "there are many names on that list" guilty of these very crimes. I freely admitted in my previous response that I can't know for sure who was guilty and who was not, but the ones for whom no defense has been provided demonstrates the flaws in Grooglez understanding, which is the reason for my response here.

If Grooglez understanding of the chain of causation was correct, then those crews/cities housing those members would be removed. This is a logical fallacy because many of the crews of those members have not been removed and crews/cities who have no members whatsoever in the obituaries have also been removed. This is why Grooglez is wrong and why I presented the data to demonstrate this in order to help him improve his understanding.

Now to your latest response, Grooglez. You seem to be trying to draw conclusions from my statements as to why your understanding is flawed and apply them to something else entirely. The reason I mention the inability of leaders to prevent these malcontents from "causing drama" is because it would be a very flimsy reason to use to remove a city or a crew unless there were lots and lots of people from any one city or crew doing this, a train of thought which the data shows as false. This was your flawed thinking, not mine. I allege that the reasons for the crews/cities being removed is because they are not part of the Nifl/affiliate group, a large part of my response which you've chosen to disregard entirely. Why is that?

I also defined for you what a purge is, yet you seem to think the removal of crews/cities is being alleged to be a purge by me. It isn't, I have never stated that and this is a further misunderstanding on your behalf. The only time I discussed purging was to ask you three questions in relation to it. How do you feel about it? Would you ever do it and have you ever done it either as a leader or as a RHM? I was under the impression our discussion of purging would occur elsewhere, given you asked for further information from me specifically, but I'm still awaiting your response. Perhaps you'll attend that discussion next?

Anyway, I have already explained above why the list was compiled in the way that it was. As a very analytical person, I am very surprised that you would try to use the common method of objectively presenting data as a reason to cease a discussion you asked for. Surely a very analytical person would critically analyse what has been presented and draw conclusions accordingly, like I have done. If you were to do that, you would see the logical fallacy in your own earlier reasoning. Given that you haven't done that, that you have ignored large swathes of my response and have seemingly chosen to jump upon a list of obituaries as a reason to end our discourse, one might be forgiven for thinking it is because you have no evidence to refute what I'm saying. Is that the case? If not, what part of my views are nonsensical? Do you deny that there is a Nifl/affiliate group? Do you think Wolverine was lying when he told me about it? Please, let me know. I'm eager to grow and learning from ones mistakes is the best way to do that; that is the whole reason we are having this chat after all, isn't it? So that I can help you. 

Allow me the same opportunity for improvement. 

Dr. Funkhouser here and you're listening to Radio 101.3 That's Analytics. One of our guests claims he knows analytics, while the other disputes that very assertion. Who is the real deity of data? Find out after a word from our sponsors.

Welcome back to the discussion, Grooglez. I am extremely pleased to hear you'll respond later. I look forward to hearing you address the glaring oversights in your previous responses. 

I think TylerDurden will be the first CL to die..I will consider any bets that may come at me with my prediction.

Grooglez, are you going to respond today?

Will today be the day you reply, Grooglez?

"Hey, Grin-03, how are ya? It sounds like you're in the middle of something pretty deep and though I hate to interrupt, I got a message for ya."

A wiry, mousy haired girl approaches Grin-03 with a slight skip in her step. She offers a look of interest and a sincere smile when faced with Grin-03.

"I've actually just spoken to my boss and he's advised he'll be responding to you soon. I'd love to get involved and keep you company, but I think this discussion is pretty far over my head to really give my words any real credibility. That and I don't really have any weight behind me, who am I, really? Just a messenger at this point. So, anyway, thanks for your patience!"

Hello, TesslynFall. I'm fine, thank you for asking. How are you doing? Don't worry about interrupting, I'm not actually in the middle of anything at all as Grooglez still hasn't been able to address his glaring oversights, so you aren't causing any harm here whatsoever.

Now that I think about it, he hasn't been able to continue the discourse he wanted to start about purging on another corner either, so your update on Grooglez progress in making a reply is most welcome and really puts my mind at ease. I was beginning to think he was lying when he said he was going to respond later as two days have already elapsed and he hasn't made a peep! Then again, it must be hard for him to come up with a worthwhile response (just check out that last piece of irrelevance about analytics rather than the Nifl/affiliate elephant in the room) when there are so many things he didn't address and/or misunderstood after all.

You know what? I think it would be unreasonable of me not to allow him more time to respond, especially when you came out here with a message of reassurance. Pull up a chair, TesslynFall. While we wait for your boss, maybe you can tell me about life in The Spanish Inquisition? I'm dying to know if Grooglez is this slow in all communication or just when it comes to addressing his glaring oversights and misunderstanding. Does that happen a lot or is it just the times when I'm (not?) speaking with him?  

TesslynFall, you've gone awfully quiet now too. Do you have any further updates upon when we can expect this promised response from Grooglez? Are incredibly delayed responses a crew rule or are you just following his example? Regardless, I'm excited to see what one of the self-perceived brightest minds in the analytics game can produce after all this time spent.

Hey Grin-03!

Sorry I've not been about the last 10 hours, just had better things to do if I'm totally honest! I'm sure you'll get the response intended from my boss. I'd be happy to keep you company once I've caught myself up on the discussion that's taking place here, it just takes me time to really understand the different things people are talking about before I feel appropriate to get involved. It doesn't help I'm easily distracted, either, my pop used to follow me with a sign he made that had written in what I was supposed to be doing at that very moment as I'd just wander off. Sometimes it was honest enough, but others, like washing my hair and instead I'd clog the tub to make a puddle which I then forgot about and pop got an awful telling off by Mrs Maio who lived below us and the water fell through her roof and soaked her cat. Poor thing was scared something horrid as it died a couple of days later. 

No need to apologise, I understand that sitting out here waiting for Grooglez promised response isn't everyone's idea of fun; maybe just mine.

To save you the trouble of having to rehash the whole discussion, I'll give you a brief summary:

BombadilSlayer predicted the deaths of the various Dons and their families. This was met with predominantly ridicule, shortly before those people met their demise.

Someone then made a comparison with Curtis (meaning Disorder, I assume) reign and said this one seemed similar. This was dismissed.

I pointed out that the common theme between the Disorder regime and the current regime is that Wolverine was a predominant member of both.

Alexander_Hamilton tried to make out that Wolverine was actually very peaceful and interested in working with the people who were around at the time BombadilSlayer made his predictions. 

I then explained to Alexander_Hamilton about the reality of our current landscape being dominated by the Nifl/affiliate group and explained to him their modus operandi, primarily gaining control and ruthlessly maintaining that position. 

Grooglez then appeared and asked if he understood things correctly before presenting a mistaken chain of causation to explain the demise of the people who were around at the time BombadilSlayer made his prediction.

I told Grooglez that he had not understood correctly.

Grooglez asked to be enlightened and because he's a very analytical person asked that it be kept factual.

After Grooglez and LewisCapaldi went off on a tangent, I returned to explain to Grooglez where he had gone wrong. Because he's a very analytical person I kept it factual for him, before asking him three questions about purging.

Rather than address the evidence presented before him, Grooglez made further erroneous statements, denying that there was a purge, ignoring the Nifl/affiliate regime entirely (which was the point of the discussion), ignoring my questions and labelled my views as nonsensical.

I responded by pointing out these further flaws and asked for an explanation as to why my views were nonsensical. I was particularly interested in knowing if Grooglez was just ignoring the problems with his own reasoning or was genuinely denying the existence of the Nifl/affiliate group. If he was, I wanted to know if he thought Wolverine was lying when he told me about it.

Grooglez replied with some irrelevance about analytics, ignoring the questions posed to him once again, but did assure us he would respond later.

Since then, I've just been asking him if he has had time to address his oversights. That was the 7th-9th. Then you arrived with further reassurance his reply was forthcoming and you know what has happened between the 9th-12th, Grooglez hasn't replied. 

Hopefully that'll save you some time. Feel free not to comment on any of that if you don't want to though, I can understand if it isn't very appealing to do so. I was also more interested in knowing what life was like under Grooglez from someone enjoying the experience first hand. I bet it's a veritable hotbed of fast-paced discourse, someone asks a question, a week later they get a reply, two weeks after that a rebuttal is promised by an underling....I can just picture it. So jealous.