Depends on the context, Ajani. Lets not all pretend that we're saints, eh? 

Although, Kittie, if you want to actually win anybody round to your point of view, as opposed to just sit and grandstand, calling them stupid outright probs isn't the way to do it. 

I think it is very hard for people to actually convince others of their point of views in this world. Just look at this thread.......it's quite funny to see the human nature in these conversations.

Most individuals have their morals and ego's set in stone so I'm not sure why people always feel the incessant need to one up each other or always be right and prove someone is wrong.

We all come from very diverse backgrounds with different life experiences. I think that's what makes this world fun and interesting.

Ultimately though in these questions of judgement, it is important to have faith and belief in what the administrators are doing. I don't think they take their powers and decisions lightly and to continually badger them and pick apart everything they do is not healthy. This is in a way a microcosm of what happens in real life.  A lot of energy is wasted though in these silly back and forths when you could all be writing and creating a more vibrant role playing world.......

Kittie, this is indeed a mafia game. But seeing as this is News & Announcements and not the streets, I do indeed think that you should consider your words carefully and hold back the foul ones. Also, if this was the streets... If a mobster disrespects his/her fellow mafiosi, reprecussions usually follow. And as Maria said, I don't think calling people stupid and telling them to stfu is a good way to convince us you're right...

PantiesBeDroppin, indeed I was complaining about profanity on here. It's News & Announcements. I think it's quite normal that decent language is used here. If this were the streets I wouldn't mind that much. I also found it annoying that Asschicken was told to stop ''insulting'' people, while Kittie was being WAY more insulting.

Problem is, PantiesBeDroppin, as far as I knew, nothing actually WAS brought to HD.

So I have read all the pages worth of comments. I won't pretend I know about the logs because I don't really care about the ins and outs.

It feels rather hypocritical though to say that you will deal with these as DD's from now on but give a suspension. If it is as bad as it has been brought forth then it should be a DD for everyone, surely Ace included? If you make a rule, surely everyone should have the same punishment regardless?

I agree that threatening HD is something that shouldn't even have to be said but clearly it did need the saying. Glad it's out there for future reference for the people that may try that tactic in the future.

Only thing I am not agreeing with is that Ace is let off the hook of the rules that you plan to put on everyone else. If its a threat, and threats about HD accounts are not tolerated and will lead to a DD, well then he should be DD'd not in admin jail. That's just my opinion though.

Well, I haven’t commented on this in public because well, clearly it's a mess, but I guess now is a better time than any.

JohnnyNoname has been very generous with me. He tried to recruit my playing account several times this year, and on this account, I accepted. I’ve known his bloodline on and off going back to when he was Odysseus. We had worked with similar people. I knew him as Anomaly, and I watched this character blossom in the past year from a distance.

The thing that many of you don’t seem to be able to grasp however is that Ace and I never talked that much. We were friendly though. I used to call him Anomolly, but did we PM each other when I did that? No. I've pmed Tepid more times after calling him TEPID than I ever did with Ace when I called him Anomolly. We didn't really speak much prior to BloodySpikeS, except for his attempts at recruiting me. I did like him though from what I knew of him.

As for working under him, I have done my best to help him maintain his district, and his life here while he has been busy outside of the game. PaulyD and Siobhan can attest to this many times over. I have kept him alive. You can ask him for details, if you're that curious about when... Anyway my loyalty to Ace has been proven to him, many times over. I never wanted anything bad to happen to him because in game he has been one of my biggest supporters as of late, and we have had a good thing going in Queens with our friends. The original offer when he came to recruit me was pretty much that it would be “Party Party Party” with Goodfellas, always an enticing offer to anyone.

I come here today to explain what happened roughly a week ago. Since people like logs, here is my conversation with Ace that is in question, unadulterated, with inappropriate an inappropriate joke from me (Sorry Maria, but I was trying to get a point across to him).

0[20:01] <SpikeSpiegel> Ace
[20:01] <Ace> Hey
00[20:01] <SpikeSpiegel> Got a complaint about HGH
[20:01] <Ace> about what
00[20:01] <SpikeSpiegel> https://mafiareturns.com/comm/thread/457359#86690023
00[20:01] <SpikeSpiegel> Anna = super pissed
[20:02] <Ace> About what lol
[20:02] <Ace> And I could care less
[20:02] <Ace> What did he even say that made her mad lol
00[20:02] <SpikeSpiegel> Pantiesbedroppin your gentleman like qualities ain't gonna cut it. Women like a little assertiveness and males of an aggressive nature...
00[20:02] <SpikeSpiegel> Let me demonstrate, "MARIA , woman. Here. Now. Me"
00[20:02] <SpikeSpiegel> *As if sensing the call of her master, she races down the street on all paws, tongue wagging with hopeful eyes and brimming expectation*
00[20:02] <SpikeSpiegel> Woof.
00[20:02] <SpikeSpiegel> Reply by: HumanGrowthHormone at Oct 22, '14 04:03
00[20:02] <SpikeSpiegel> I think that
[20:03] <Ace> lol
[20:03] <Ace> Did she even right in that thread?
00[20:04] <SpikeSpiegel> no
[20:04] <Ace> I think he meant Marizza
[20:04] <Ace> Just delete it
00[20:04] <SpikeSpiegel> anna wasn't complaining to me as a HD
[20:04] <Ace> lol
[20:04] <Ace> alright
00[20:05] <SpikeSpiegel> and I don't wanna handle it as staff
[20:05] <Ace> Well its nothing to be that mad over really
[20:05] <Ace> I'm pretty sure he meant Marriza
[20:05] <Ace> but its nothing to throw a fucking fit over
00[20:06] <SpikeSpiegel> pretty misogynistic/sexist/disrespectful
[20:06] <Ace> LOL
00[20:06] <SpikeSpiegel> and knowing anna, she's sensitive
[20:06] <Ace> Then just fucking admin wack him
[20:06] <Ace> Shes not sensitive
[20:06] <Ace> you can't talk to people the way she does
[20:06] <Ace> and claim you're sensitive
00[20:07] <SpikeSpiegel> if she went into the streets and was like *
00[20:08] <SpikeSpiegel> *Anna opens her legs and HGH comes running like a subservient pig to lick away at her*
00[20:08] <SpikeSpiegel> HGH isn't he right person
00[20:08] <SpikeSpiegel> let's say an upper structure person she doesn't know
00[20:08] <SpikeSpiegel> etc
00[20:08] <SpikeSpiegel> that's why she's pissed
00[20:09] <SpikeSpiegel> anyway I don't wanna argue on her behalf much, I was making you aware of some BS
00[20:09] <SpikeSpiegel> etc
[20:09] <Ace> I don't want you aruging on her behalf either
00[20:09] <SpikeSpiegel> drammamamaama
[20:09] <Ace> I mailed him
[20:09] <Ace> The dude is just a troll why even get mad
00[20:09] <SpikeSpiegel> sexual stuff is naughty
[20:10] <Ace> I guess
[20:10] <Ace> I still think he meant someone else
[20:10] <Ace> I mailed him anyway
[20:10] <Ace> just delete the post man
00[20:10] <SpikeSpiegel> cool cool
[20:10] <Ace> honestly
00[20:10] <SpikeSpiegel> I can't delete the post unless he requests it.
[20:11] <Ace> I'M REQUESTING
[20:11] <Ace> WHAT

0[20:11] <SpikeSpiegel> you aren't the poster!
[20:11] <Ace> SO WHAT
00[20:11] <SpikeSpiegel> it's not protocol.
[20:11] <Ace> okay
[20:11] <Ace> whatever
07[20:11] <Ace> I'll just shoot bloodyspikes
00[20:12] <SpikeSpiegel> that would be mean
[20:12] <Ace> so what
00[20:12] <SpikeSpiegel> why would you wanna be mean to me?
[20:12] <Ace> You don't listen to my orders!
00[20:12] <SpikeSpiegel> You can't order around my staff account.
00[20:13] <SpikeSpiegel> my playing account, yes.
[20:14] <Ace> Nope
[20:14] <Ace> I can boss both
00[20:14] <SpikeSpiegel> :/
[20:14] <Ace> I'll shoot both accounts!
[20:14] <Ace> I will get adrenaline
00[20:14] <SpikeSpiegel> lol
00[20:25] <SpikeSpiegel> Yo ace
[20:25] <Ace> lol
[20:25] <Ace> yo
00[20:26] <SpikeSpiegel> the post is gone
00[20:26] <SpikeSpiegel> don't threaten me again.
00[20:27] <SpikeSpiegel> make sure HGH is properly warned.
[20:27] <Ace> Alright, thanks
[20:27] <Ace> I could care less lol
[20:27] <Ace> Just wack him if oyu want
00[20:27] <SpikeSpiegel> eh, only if he continues
Session Close: Wed Oct 22 21:58:05 2014

Many of you have questioned my reaction to a threat from Ace due to your own experiences with him. My experience was quite different. I gave him hay mostly. That was about it. The thing that many of you don’t understand is that I do not have that “joking/trolling” relationship with him. I never knew Ace to troll me. None of the rooms I am in have that happen, except for the occasional GF threat to a GF in DL. He has never threatened me before, and moreover, I hadn’t been added by him on Skype until after he was in jail so that we could talk. I had never been drunk with him talking late at night or anything of that sort, rambling about wild things. Any jokes that occurred were on IRC, and well, not game related, usually perverted.

Was he joking? Now, I would like to think so. I think he was. At the time, no. It seemed very out of character for him, and that’s why I freaked. A death threat and CAPS are scary from someone who had never acted like that before to me, and could very easily wipe me. Would he wipe me? He did invest a lot of trust in me, but... You never know. I thought he was drunk honestly because it was just weird.

Anyway I called Squishy, between my nervous PMed “lol”s, (roughly around when the conversation had a ten minute delay) because this is what Staff would view as “a worst nightmare” situation. Our playing accounts are not supposed to have anything to do with our staff accounts. A threat like that is very serious, and I did feel pressured given my previous dealings with Ace as being pretty straight forward regarding game issues prior. Since this was uncharacteristic, I genuinely thought he was angry. I had previously filed my own complaint to Ace about a week prior due to a mail from that HGH fellow in response to my Mass Mail about Ace’s birthday. He told me to “Suck him dry.” This is why I had gone to Ace with it, since it was another example of him causing trouble, but this time with Anna, “sensitive.” (Sorry again Maria)

My conversation with Squishy was very short. It was alerting him of a possible problem, and it is a Staff member’s duty to report things of that nature. I was given permission to delete the post even though we have rules about leaving those posts up, and having leaders deal with it. As requested, I handed over the logs with Anna and Ace to Squishy. We discussed the possible outcomes of if Ace did take a shot at me and we decided that it'd be best for everyone to leave it alone for the night since it was an odd situation. I made it clear that I didn't think it'd be a good idea if Ace was punished if a shot wasn't taken since that would cause a world of shit... Oh well. Here we are.

My fear subsided and that night I went to bed very late, thinking that it was all over, that things would be fine and continue as usual. I figured he had just been letting off some steam, and it didn’t mean anything.

The next day, I awoke late in the afternoon in shock to see Ace in jail and demoted. I have said several times over that I felt like Rick Grimes waking up in the hospital, but that might be an understatement. It took me about twenty minutes or so to adjust to my new surroundings, my PMs and this thread. I soon talked to a very distressed and sad Ace, my KingGOAT, for the first time on Skype. I couldn’t really say much about what happened since I didn’t exactly know, and I felt horrible for him. I wanted to help him.

But what help could I be? The Admins had made a ruling in this thread. All Ace wanted was his rank back. Today, I talked with Izzy finally about this on Ace’s behalf. It cannot be undone. Punishments are no longer being revoked due to aggravation from users in the past regarding it occurring. I could argue Izzy for hours, but that point is pretty final. Funny thing is, I even considered asking Izzy to have Ace do a Dice Roll for his rank back, but that was a little farfetched… To ask if he could have his rank back and have him retire on his 365^th so he’d get that year in as Godfather… To beg and cry etc. … So where does that leave us?

It leaves us with JohnnyNoname (Don), the thing that he was most upset about, probably the thing that most people were upset about. Someone who had worked so hard on his account has been reduced to a Don. The only thing I can question now is: Is that so bad? He still is alive. He still is my Leader, without the rank. He is still my King... GOAT. I want to see him live to that year mark, if not longer, if he’s willing to do it, and not retire as he has suggested he will do when his sentence ends. I still want to pet his horns and torture Siobhan to give him cans, like the way things have been. Party Party Party with PaulyD. I can only hope he accepts to stay. I know Queens wants it, and I am certain that others do too.

In conclusion, JohnnyNoname/Ace is a great guy. He just made one misstep in speech. If he had only said that he was kidding somewhere in there... I wish this situation never arose. It is just as a great Godfather once put it to me: "a grey area." However, I am still loyal to JohnnyNoName, and plan to continue to be. He should not retire to due to simply a setback in units. He is a King, of royal blood, units do not matter. If you want to question my loyalty to him in game, it’d probably be best to rethink that, but the fact of the matter is that this was a situation Staff thought no one would ever have even attempted, even as a joke. The Staff Account and Playing Account separation is clearly drawn, and there isn’t much that staff can be “whipped” into doing, within reason. We shouldn't be. But my loyalty in game has never wavered, and this was FAR from an in game issue. I do understand why punishment occurred, despite the unfortunate nature of it, since it directly affected me as well. Obviously, I've been frustrated and racking my brain for the past week for a fix, but meh.

I’m sorry Ace that I couldn’t fix things, and you too Cantillon, and anyone else who might’ve been hoping for “Call-Me-Helen-Keller-I’m-a-Fucking-Miracle-Worker-Spike” to save the day. It just wasn’t in the cards, since that Joker card had been revoked from the game. As for any final words I have about this, to quote Meet The Parents, “Don’t say bomb on an airplane,” and if you’re going to make a joke to someone, make sure they know it’s a joke (if it’s a threat) or at least make sure they’re aware after, in a very timely fashion. Also, when Ace is out of jail, we should hold a welcome back party.

P.S.

And just as I was writing this, mother fuck. 

It seems like a lot of this thread is about bashing JohnnyNoname. Most of you're probably glad he was dded, most of you even said in here I deserved it. Most of you are just saying that well, because you don't like me. I would just like to shed some light on this for all of you to know as I don't think this deserved a DD, or hell I didn't even think I deserved the jail or the demote. I'm just coming here to show you guys the logs of why I was jailed and demoted from a 67 unit 340 day old Godfather to a 45 unit Don.

1[19:10] <Ace> I guess
01[19:10] <Ace> I still think he meant someone else
01[19:10] <Ace> I mailed him anyway
01[19:10] <Ace> just delete the post man
[19:10] <SpikeSpiegel> cool cool
01[19:10] <Ace> honestly
[19:10] <SpikeSpiegel> I can't delete the post unless he requests it.
01[19:11] <Ace> I'M REQUESTING
01[19:11] <Ace> WHAT
[19:11] <SpikeSpiegel> you aren't the poster!
01[19:11] <Ace> SO WHAT
[19:11] <SpikeSpiegel> it's not protocol.
01[19:11] <Ace> okay
01[19:11] <Ace> whatever
01[19:11] <Ace> I'll just shoot bloodyspikes
[19:12] <SpikeSpiegel> that would be mean
01[19:12] <Ace> so what
[19:12] <SpikeSpiegel> why would you wanna be mean to me?
01[19:12] <Ace> You don't listen to my orders!
[19:13] <SpikeSpiegel> You can't order around my staff account.
[19:13] <SpikeSpiegel> my playing account, yes.
01[19:14] <Ace> Nope
01[19:14] <Ace> I can boss both
[19:14] <SpikeSpiegel> :/
01[19:14] <Ace> I'll shoot both accounts!
01[19:14] <Ace> I will get adrenaline
[19:14] <SpikeSpiegel> lol

Those are logs between me and my OWN auth that I poured money into. It wasn't meant to be as anything more than just a joke with my own auth and nothing else was ever though about the situation. I then woke up the next day to an admin jail and demoted from Godfather which I had been for several months. I just wanted everyone to see the logs. Anyone that knows me knows it was a joke coming from me and especially me talking to my own auth! 

'Ze logz' were already posted for everyone to see. I still fail to see how you can call it a joke, especially when your own auth said "dont threaten me again" and you didn't even seem confused by that statement. I know if I was just joking around with someone and they took it seriously to the point where they asked me not to threaten them, I would've assured them it was just a joke and that the threat wasn't serious right there and then.

But you didn't, and you conveniently left that part out of the logs you decided to share. Interesting indeed.

P.S. Maria is not sensitive. She is a strong independent woman. 

If it was me Squishy I would not just kill them off, I would "BAN" them for even trying it.

This is a game and those that choose to try and cheat have no reason to be here or on any other game.

A great game I may add :}

Cheating is a very harsh way to put it, FFF.

00[20:04] <SpikeSpiegel> anna wasn't complaining to me as a HD
[20:04] <Ace> lol
[20:04] <Ace> alright
00[20:05] <SpikeSpiegel> and I don't wanna handle it as staff
[20:05] <Ace> Well its nothing to be that mad over really
[20:05] <Ace> I'm pretty sure he meant Marriza
[20:05] <Ace> but its nothing to throw a fucking fit over

Spike, you said it yourself, you and Ace didn't talk often. But you kept talking to him about this problem. HGH was JohnnyNoname's member and JohnnyNoname's problem. After Ace said alright and that there was nothing to get mad about you continued to talk to him about it even though it wasn't your problem, she didn't come to you as SpikeSpiegel HD and you didn't want to handle it even if it did come to you. Then why keep talking to him about it? It wasn't your problem. Maria has explained that she mailed her CL about it and wanted it to be handled in game, between players, not help desk. 

Honestly, if JohnnyNoname was to put on trial, so should SpikeSpiegel's help desk account. As must as you say you didn't want to handle the situation as staff it really looked like that's what you were going for. Maybe if you had a better relationship with your GODFATHER you would have not freaked at the obvious joke. 

After this thread was made it pretty much gave an immortality to Spike's in game account. If he were killed for taking an in game conversation (is that where you were coming from Spike? Concerned for your Godfather with one of his members running around with a mouth like that? A Godfather you never talked to about things like this?) to his help desk account and causing 00[20:09] <SpikeSpiegel> drammamamaama. If anyone were to kill him in game, even if it were for in game reasons, they would be DD'd. We saw this today with OrangeJuice-. Maybe he honestly didn't like Spike as a crew leader and saw his chance and shot him. 

From today on, do people that don't have help desk accounts have to worry about being DD'd if they kill a CL (or RH...LH) that also has a help desk account? I think this is why people always suggested that Helpdesk not be able to both have their help desk acount and CL/RH account at the same time. Now that something like this has happened will those rules be changed? Spike has showed us that he obviously cannot separate his in game account and his help desk account.

I understand with saying that, it's unfair for the other people that are on helpdesk and also a CL/RH in game if it was changed that they couldn't help and also lead at the same time. So to not be unfair to others who can separately be responsible with their help desk (OOC) accounts and their CL/RH accounts (IC) take Spike out of his HelpDesk account position. Sure, he's dead, he's not a crew leader anymore, but he still did this. Still made these choices and opened up this whole environment of helpdesk vs players. Admins, do you really want someone like SpikeSpiegel on the help desk team when he cannot do his job properly?

Will I be DD'd for sharing my opinions on this subject? Questioning Spike's motives for taking an in game conversation to his help desk account and then to admin? Honestly, it's a 50/50 shot. My post could simply be deleted. Or I could wake up dead tomorrow. Or I could wake up tomorrow morning and still have my account. Still have my account and things have changed or nothing has changed. But I will take that risk as I can't sit on the sidelines anymore and watch this just play out. There is a problem here and it isn't just joking about killing a help desk's IG playing account. 

With that being said, the fact that I could be DD'd for this post or even banned, I will say that the post Spike made that included the logs and plenty of self boasting, were the farthest thing from being tactful. Those reading this can say all day that's rich coming from me. But it was Spike that said that the matter was brought to him not as a helpdesk member and he didn't want to deal with it as a member of staff, but now, here he is, posting with his staff account. All Ace/JohnnyNoname had was his IC account and all any of have, that are not on staff, is our IC account. 

 Honestly, it's a 50/50 shot. My post could simply be deleted. Or I could wake up dead tomorrow. Or I could wake up tomorrow morning and still have my account. Still have my account and things have changed or nothing has changed. 

You said three things, that isn't how 50/50 works. Nice try.

Now I can't take anything you've just written seriously.

Ok lets think of it this way? You are friends with your National Leader, In my case that is Obama. I am always messing with obama and one day I tell him im gonna kill him if he doesn't do what I want?

What is gonna happen to me? I'm gonna get waterboarded by the CIA And they will investigate every last one of you playing this game because i once talked to you.I think he got off light.

The point is you don't joke and/or actually threaten to anyone in a position of authority about bending rules to suit your needs.

The_King, in this situation, seeing as Ace was his Godfather, it would be Obama messing with you! But you would  happen to be associated with your local Gods, so it evens out.

A wise adivice: Don't joke with killing fields...