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| Made man - Prove it. | Started by: PrinceofCheese on Mar 12, '08 18:49 |
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Yeh, Fair enough. |
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| Reply by: TheJoker at Mar 17, '08 16:36 | |
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| I am not to sure i agree with you there joker. With the whole nagging of "am i made yet? Surely i have proven myself by now", no doubt someone will start nagging shall i go get my referee's yet etc. As always there are two sides to a coin and two sides to a debate (even though this is/should not be a debate, as a Mafioso already pointed out we do as our superiors say!), but the pure fact that you do not know should be the incentive to keep proving yourself, and anyhow it should not even stop there. That is neither here or there, its a good idea it should be given its time to run and see if there are any concerns that arouse from actually real time issues and not hypothesise issues | |
| Reply by: Bleu at Mar 17, '08 16:43 | |
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Apologies there Joker and to Ellis i did no see you come forward and make your point. No need to tag team on Joker there! |
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| Reply by: Bleu at Mar 17, '08 16:44 | |
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Ok, I understand this. I was simply asking a question, and stating possible ways of improving it. Im sure the way it is will work just fine, but does that mean we shouldnt try to improve it. I dont want to nag my CL. And i would continue working until they see fit to have me promoted. Its just that Wise Guys could give references who then could retire/die/be rejected as a reference due to their actions before they are chosen to be made. If they could gather references once they are ready to be made then theyre references would better references. |
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| Reply by: TheJoker at Mar 17, '08 16:47 | |
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| Also, do you think its possible for people to abuse the system and provide references in return for large amounts of cash? | |
| Reply by: TheJoker at Mar 17, '08 18:53 | |
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Well TheJoker the way I see things that wouldn't be a mademan abusing the system, it would be them using the system to their benefit. After all what are they getting out of providing the reference? Would it not be fair then for the mademan to get a little gratuity out of providing the reference since they are risking themselves by giving it in the first place. |
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| Reply by: SmokingKills at Mar 17, '08 19:51 | |
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Yeh i agree, but if you can simply pay for a reference then what is the point of it? I agree someone deserves a reward for doing so, but if people sell references it defeats th epoint of getting references to avoid the wrong people being made. |
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| Reply by: TheJoker at Mar 17, '08 19:54 | |
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Either way it was a bold move. I personally agree with it. I think it's a great way to control some of the loose cannons. |
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| Reply by: -MuffinMan- at Mar 17, '08 21:05 | |
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Yeh but there is a major problem - Very little people are willing to give out references. Even if you do know them well. Why should people who have already reached made man want to risk all their hard work if you fuck up? They will lose it all and have to do it again, if i was already made id probably do the same. But this makes it almost impossible for someone to gain 3 references! |
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| Reply by: TheJoker at Mar 18, '08 12:55 | |
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Mike thinks over all the points made so far and decides maybe it is time to speak his mind, after all, many people can hear it when he talks in his sleep anyway. As TheJoker was the last person to offer an input, Mike decides it is him who he should address. TheJoker, surely if you are hard working, have made yourself known to people who have in turn, been able to trust you, you will be given a reference. If you are saying that people are too worried about their own skin, then you obviously haven't fully gained the trust of these people. I have not commented on this previously, but I have been reading it since I became a Gangster and contemplating the issues I would face finding referees. Mike adjusts his suit jacket as it is getting a little small for him after eating too many eggs for breakfast each day. Realising he stopped half way through what he wanted to say, he continues... I have, however, put myself out there, I have frequented businesses, even starting one of my own, am in regular contact with many people, some of whom knew my brother, others who I had not heard him speak of and have not spoken of him. Most importantly, I have worked in the HQ and with members of my Family to create a strong bond to them. When it comes to asking for a reference, I hope to find people who are willing to put their faith in me. If they are not, I will just try harder, however if at the end of the day, I am unable to gain these three references, then maybe the rank of Wise Guy is all I was ever meant to reach, maybe my brother really was better than me as he regularly bragged. Mulling it over in his head, Mike wonders whether it was his place to respond to TheJoker's point, and thinks it may be best to cover his own ass either way... In any event, as has been said time and time again, this should never be a discussion as to whether the merits of this new policy outweigh the drawbacks, nor should it be a place for people to openly disrespect the discussions, and thus the abilities of the current Family heads. I'm sorry if you disagree, but learn to live with it, work your damnedest to find those referees and you may just get them, they will not just be handed to you, nor should you expect them to be. Finished with his train of thought, Mike shakes the hand of TheJoker, who he hopes does not find his comments distasteful, hands him a flier for Prykes, and continues on his walks through the streets distributing his fliers as he goes...
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| Reply by: Mike_Pryke at Mar 18, '08 14:11 | |
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Shakes Mike's Hand in Return and Nods Mike, Im glad to hear your input. I work hard, i talk to many people, and i try my hardest to gain trust from these people. Its just not that easy! I don's want 3 references handed to me, I dont expect anything to be handed to me but with several high ranking members of the community showing that they have no intention of giving out references, to anyone, it creates problems. And if you ask me it is a major floor in the new plan. Don't get me wrong, im not complaining about it, i agree with what it has been put in place to prevent, and agree that wise guy's should have to do that little bit more to be made, i just think theres a few problems with this system thats all. |
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| Reply by: TheJoker at Mar 18, '08 14:40 | |
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Isn't this system a little too similar to.. a normal job? When I first heard about this I thought it was a great idea and wondered why nobody had thought of it before. But the more I think about it, the more flaws I find. It just doesn't fit with our world. If a Mademan goes rogue, shouldn't the shit land on his crewleader's doorstep? Shouldn't we just make sure its drilled in to every crewleader's mind that if one of their Mademen fuck up its them who'll suffer the consequences? Its a time for crewleaders to take responsibility. To promote responsibly. Not pass the buck. |
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| Reply by: TheD at Mar 18, '08 19:51 | |
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I haven't really been keeping up with the conversation for awhile, so I'm sorry if I repeat anything, but after thinking about it for awhile, I feel the need to give my two cents. First off, whatever the case, the decision to put this system in place is the CLs' decision and their's alone. Whether the rest of us agree with it or not, they have the power, so we should respect their choice no matter if we agree with it or not. That doesn't mean we can't give them our perspectives on it though, so with that being said here's mine. I think, much like Communism, that its a great on paper, but when actually implemented, not so good. The downsides outweigh the upsides. I've always believed that a man or woman is responsible for their own actions. This goes against that belief. Because after they get Made, now three other people are responsible for their actions. Sure the person who does something wrong is still going to pay for their actions, but now people who had no idea that they were going to do something wrong, are going to be paying as well. People think for themselves, so why should others have to pay for what that person does? Another thing, I've already noticed that people are letting it be known that they won't give out references. Many people aren't willing to put their lives on the line for others. Although I don't have a problem with doing it, I don't blame those people for not wanting to. Why should anybody put their lives on the line just so somebody can get Made? Sure you can say that this just means you have to make sure you don't do anything wrong if you really care about others lives, but we've all had moments of bad judgment, and we all do something wrong at sometime or another. WE should be punished for those moments of bad judgment, not others. Not to mention, I'll just use myself as an example, what if I decide to find three references, and I get Made. Then when I'm finally Made, I'm cruising along nicely, then I get killed for something I didn't even do. Then my references get killed for it too. Then its found out that I was innocent. So instead of me just being killed for a mistake, three others would be killed for it too. That's two people Earner or above, and two people Made Man or above that are going to die for a mistake. I think that's a little much. I understand why this has been implemented, and I'll respect that this system is in place, but I just think the upsides aren't worth all of the downsides. |
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| Reply by: Cage at Mar 18, '08 22:16 | |
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| Any chance one of the CL's Could give a brief example of what a reference should consist of? | |
| Reply by: TheJoker at Mar 19, '08 07:15 | |
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| Just "I am willing to vouch for X" will suffice, it doesn't need to be elaborate. | |
| Reply by: Zephyr at Mar 19, '08 08:34 | |
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TheD, As I've said repeatedly, referencing is but a first step. The choice still lies with the leader. As with any scenario, if an obtuse amount of rogues come from any one crew that leader's judgement will come into question. This is not passing the buck, merely implementing due dilligence. |
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| Reply by: PrinceofCheese at Mar 20, '08 07:31 | |
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I have a question is there such a thing as "too many references"? |
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| Reply by: Rambo at Mar 20, '08 07:33 | |
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| To go back to the fact that so many are refusing to give references no matter who is asking, which adds difficulty to collection, there is also the fact that at least one CL - maybe more, I personally only know of one, has forbidden his uppers to do so. Now, while this is understandable from his position of not wanting his inner circle to be taking the chance of the person they referenced making a fatal error, what happens if several CLs start doing this? | |
| Reply by: Voulu at Mar 20, '08 11:36 | |
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I'm sorry Voulu, but I believe this is a falsehood and not endemic of the masses. I know for a fact that a few people, including myself, have had above the required number of references. If you cannot get people to vouch for you, it is not the fault of the Leaders. Though yes, it is true that one CL has forbidden his upper structure (about 10 people?) from providing references, this has little to no effect as there is still an abundance of Mobsters who are eligible to vouch. Whilst I don't usually like to get involved in hypothetical situations, I presume that if all leaders adopted a stance of their upper structure not giving a references, things wouldn't change much. Yes, it may be slightly harder to obtain a reference from a smaller pool of people, I still see no reason why you would not be able to prove yourself worthy of a reference. |
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| Reply by: Sprozza at Mar 20, '08 13:31 | |
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Everything in this discussion basically comes back to the fact that if you want Made, you now have to earn it. Becoming a Made Man, within this ruleset at least, is no longer a default transition. Be more proactive within your family, socialise more, interact, come up with original ideas for the streets or your HQ. If you want your badge badly enough, you'll find a way to earn respect and the references that invariably come with it. If you don't, then you won't. There's nothing wrong with that either, but being Made is no longer a right. That's all there is to it. |
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| Reply by: Turk at Mar 20, '08 17:06 | |
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